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Topic: Is my therapy supervisor out of line?

W started this discussion 7.7 years ago #284

Hi there,

I am a (female) ph.d student in clinical psychology currently completing the final stage of my training- internship. A few week ago, I started a new rotation and I am having difficult interactions with a new psychologist supervisor. Initially, what I found difficult working with him was his excessive needs to approve and be informed about everything (i.e., micro-manage). Cognizant of my status as an 'intern' on the power totem, I let it go. Besides, I figured that his inexperience as a faculty/supervisor in the internship program probably accounted for his excessive need to 'be boss'. Yesterday, however, we had a difficult supervision meeting where I felt a major boundary was crossed.

Specifically, he referred to a bullet point I made in a previous reflection note (interns write out weekly reflection notes to process clinical material that emerges in supervision) that had to do with managing my internal reactions to a patient who had expressed (very forcefully) anti-Christian feelings. I included this in my note as I am a Christian and managing my immediate reactions to what the patient was saying was a challenging clinical moment for me. Of course, having been a therapist for as long as I have, this wasn't the first time that I had to manage my internal reaction to what clients bring up and consequently, as any responsible therapist I have developed a repertoire of strategies and techniques to do so. In any case, this supervisor missed the boat with this reflection and maneuvered the discussion to talking about my wearing a cross, which I do. I acknowledged that wearing my cross is a personal decision, and I am aware of it being an indirect disclosure. I also elaborated on the personal choices/decisions therapists make in how they want to practice. For example, pure analysts will go so far to remove their wedding bands because they aspire to be entirely anonymous to their patients as this is believed to be necessary for transference to occur. On the other extreme, feminist therapist use self-disclosure freely to equalize power between their clients. I had hoped my response would satisfy his query. Yet, he kept on pressing and at one point said that he was not pressuring me to take off my cross. In the same breath, however, he noted that some people wear their crosses underneath their shirts or on another body part that was not "visible". Once again, I noted my wearing my cross had not been an issue in my work with patients and reinforced the value I place on practicality as I felt this is a 'debate' that did not currently have any practical ramifications. On the inside, I was thinking why the heck is he making an issue where there is none right now?! Finally, he stated "I highly recommend you reconsider this". I was speechless.

So...I would really appreciate your feedback on this:
First, do you think his comments are at minimum a boundary violation? That is, in his role as my therapy supervisor, do you think he crossed the line not necessarily by talking about this but rather by INITIATING talking about this as his agenda and not mine?
Second, are his comments discriminatory?
Third, are his comments culturally insensitive?

Given the significance of the above to me, and my already dissatisfaction with this supervisors (e.g., condescending attitude, micro-managing) and the fact that he has a lot of power on me as per the end of rotation evaluation, I plan on discussing this with the director of the training program. Everything in my gut tells me that he crossed a boundary at minimum, even as a therapy supervisor. So, I appreciate your feedback to help me broaden my perspective.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Hexi joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 20 minutes later[^] [v] #0

If i went to a psychologist and he/she was wearing any religious symbols in the office or around his/her neck, i would walk out. If i was forced to interact with you per a court order, i would only make fun of you. I could also easily use it as a tool to get to you if i so wanted, making the doctor/patient relationship impossible.

(Edited 15 seconds later.)

W (OP) replied with this 7.7 years ago, 5 minutes later, 25 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #0

Thanks for honest feedback. It would be grist for the mill as they say

BrilliantlyMinded joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 24 minutes later, 50 minutes after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> If i went to a psychologist and he/she was wearing any religious symbols in the office or around his/her neck, i would walk out. If i was forced to interact with you per a court order, i would only make fun of you. I could also easily use it as a tool to get to you if i so wanted, making the doctor/patient relationship impossible.

You know, I like the way you think Hexi.

dr-robert joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 54 minutes later, 1 hour after the original post[^] [v] #0

Hi--

Yes. I understand your concerns, and agree that this supervisor was at least pushy. I believe that the way you dress, wear your hair, etc., is a matter of personal choice, and should not be mandated by a supervisor. If showing others that you are a Christian is important to you, that is part of your presentation to the world, and you have, in my opinion, every right to continue doing it. So on the "political level," if I can put it that way, you do have a point. On the other hand, showing your cross seems to me to be a bit more than "indirect disclosure," which is what you want to have me believe. As I see it, it is direct disclosureand a rather aggressive form of itand I believe that you must take complete responsibility for that disclosure when you make such a disclosure within the context of a psychotherapeutic environment.

This is a very complex matter, but to take just one example: You speak here of managing your reactions to the client's anti-Christian feelings. OK, but how much of what the client saidwhich is how you learned about those feelingswas stimulated by your explicit advocacy of Christian beliefs. Did you acknowledge any of that in your reflections? Did you take any responsibility for that, or was your primary focus on dealing with how you felt when your faith was dissed? What about how the patient felt when he came to you hoping to be seen, heard, and understood, and your cross pretty much said that he would not be?

Now, you say that "my wearing my cross had not been an issue in my work with patients," but I do not believe that one iota. It seems to me that it was an issue, obviously, in at least this therapy, and probably enters into all of your work in one way or another, even though I understand from your question that you would prefer not to see that. Most people have religious views, and many patients have been confused, or even traumatized, in childhood by having the unsubstantiated,"faith-based" opinions of others forced upon them, as if they were "truth," and as if failing to embrace those opinions and beliefs would have negative consequences. This often comes up in psychotherapy, but usually not at first, since other matters usually seem more pressing. You risk immediately putting the focus upon all of that material, like it or notsome of it painful and distressingwhen you sport a cross around your neck. In fact, you have the choice to show or not show your cross, and you have chosen to advertise your Christianity, and every new patient you see knows it immediately.

Since you have asked for my opinion, here it is: I think you should not be wearing your cross visibly while doing psychotherapy, which involves trying to elicit a patient's story, not advertising yours. Therapy is not about your views and values, but about those of the patient. Why should your particular ideas be visibly apparent even before the patient has had the opportunity to speak a single word? Why, for example, should the patient's desire to ventilate her atheistic ideasassuming she has thembe suppressed when she comes to you for therapy because she fears that her being honest might offend you? I agree with your supervisor that you should reconsider your attitude. In particular, you should ask yourself if you have to be a "Christian," whatever that means (it means millions of different things to millions of different people), while doing psychotherapy, or if you might do better to leave your theology out of the consulting room, and save it for your private moments.

I would like to hear back from you on this, and I congratulate you on your willingness to be open to widening your horizons. We need more therapists like that.

Be well.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 18 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

I was hoping W would consider what i said more closely instead of just waving it off. What the doc said is the exact point i was trying to get across without spelling it out for you. I wanted W to think for herself.

(Edited 25 seconds later.)

WhiteWolf joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 17 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

If it bothers you just be a Christian counselor instead?

(Edited 1 minute later.)

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 9 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I was hoping W would consider what i said more closely instead of just waving it off. What the doc said is the exact point i was trying to get across without spelling it out for you. I wanted W to think for herself.

I take that back but I will say you really suck at kiss ass thing you know? It helps when it isn't that obvious. Regardless, you're right, that is the point. I'm not disagreeing with you. Merely, I like the fact that you hit the nail on the head.

BrilliantlyMinded double-posted this 7.7 years ago, 24 minutes later, 2 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Thanks for honest feedback. It would be grist for the mill as they say

Arguing with Christian Feminist about real issues or how to approach anything without the biases one possesses (psychotherapy is not a theology lesson) is like training a dog how to go a toliet like a human being, near impossible without the ridiculious coming into play. I could go on about the realities of the sexes and that religion is a pointless old idea created solely as a result of cave man in attempt to understand the university (though it was of course far from the fact of the matter). Nevertheless, entiled to her opinion but most honestly couldn't get rat ass about religion. Religion spoke it's last insipiring words a very long time ago. Science proved to be the victor, as I can't remember, ever that a divine creator being responible for all that we have now. Feminism also seem to lack any real grounds for to say sexes are even equal (Science says quite the opposite actually) and that any argument a women comes up about a man usually refers the size of the penis, the sexuality of the man and something about not getting laid. In other words, arguments that only result in personal attacks because of insecurities of the those who argue so poorly. Honestly, I think women apart from the promise of sex (as long as you can proved the money) and whatever the companionship thing means is all they're good for.

Women have poor depth preception when compared with men and tend to act more irrationally. Largely why women can't drive, at all. They can't preform as well, what statements of better at literature tend to little more than myth of a passing wind. Even here now, this women has chosen one of the three specialites that most women do when becoming a doctor. Psychrictry, pediatrics and obstetrics. All of which have to do something with nutring. It is simple, women are hardwired to be wives, to look after the kids and Father is ment to show the way, and provide for the family. Women doing anything else, seems to result in the increase in divorce.

(Yeah just couldn't but notice that is what composes her character)

Sifter joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 17 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Hi W,

I have very recent and direct experience of exactly this as a client, which you might find helpful to your thinking around this issue. My partner and I sometimes see his individual therapist for couples work, in the same offices as I see my individual therapist. There have been times in the past where I wondered if a) she was a Christian and b) whether this was clouding her ability to understand our atheistic approach to our marriage. I have made a point of trying to be really explicit about what marriage does and doesn't mean to us, and tried to remain open to hearing her point of view without too much 'suspicion' that she's wedded to a belief system that limits her understanding of what we are experiencing. It has been difficult to know that that belief system may be operating without its being disclosed. The therapy has been helpful in numerous ways, but I feel like I have really had to work hard to have my (unconventional) point of view understood and accepted. My husband has reached his limit for now and wants a break.

Last week I was in the office and saw the couples therapist, wearing a small cross around her neck. My doubts were confirmed, and now I am sure about why I had to work so hard. I think I will find it hard to trust her again. I know that if my husband saw this he might find it hard to see her again at all, on any terms, despite the good work they've done together previously - it is likely he will see their world views as incompatible. Perhaps disclosure would have been better up front from the start - or not at all.

(Edited 26 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 18 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

I *never* kiss anyones ass here. I wanted to point out what my point was, as it was obviously missed entirely.

I have 2 sincere questions for you, BM. Why are you so afraid of women, did you get bullied by a girl in school or did your mother abuse you? Also, do you wear womens panties or bra to get a hard on?

(Edited 4 minutes later.)

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 8 minutes later, 3 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I *never* kiss anyones ass here. I wanted to point out what my point was, as it was obviously missed entirely.
>
> I have 2 sincere questions for you, BM. Why are you so afraid of women, did you get bullied by a girl in school or did your mother abuse you? Also, do you wear womens panties or bra to get a hard on?

Hahaha, now that is comedy. Nah, neither of those, at least not what your did mother abuse question implies. It does raise the question of whether you really read the background story I provided the first time I posted. Come back to me when you're better at research.

(Edited 30 seconds later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 22 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Nope, i haven't and honestly, i don't care enough to look for it either. Most "background stories" are bullshit anyways so it would hardly matter. Your posts tell enough about your fear of women and the need to be dominated by them, i was just curious about the real source of them but, then again, considering your "hahaha" reply, i wasn't that far off. Do you flash out a fake laugh in real life too when someone is right about something you don't want to admit?

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

W (OP) replied with this 7.7 years ago, 26 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Thank you Sifti for your account- it does make me wonder now how much the therapist beliefs carry significance in clients' minds. I wonder if you would have felt comfortable asking the therapist right away or even expressing your sense that she wouldn't get where you guys are coming from. I wonder too if she noticed just how hard you were trying to get your point across and where that came from. Because, the reality is even though she is a Christian as you noticed a cross, you don't really know how she defines that. And you don't know if THAT is what accounted for the difficulty you experienced in being understood by her. Making assumptions about folks, although a natural thing, is not helpful in a therapy setting. Consider if you had nurtured a strong therapeutic relationship with her, and felt understood and helped, and learned years later that she was Christian. Would you have changed how you felt about her during the work?

Hexi- thank you also for your feedback. Yeah, I get it. I am taking that risk. As much as it your right to leave the office, it is my right to be myself and exercise what is important to me. It is my duty, however, as a therapist to handle the nuances of that- whatever they may be.

And Dr. Robert:

Thanks for your reply. I appreciated your acknowledgment of the complexity of the issue because part of what I was reacting to was the seeming lack of awareness or sensitivity to these complexities by my supervisor.
To answer your question and provide more of a context, this is a new patient I had met in a dual diagnosis substance abuse outpatient program. The client interaction I described occurred in a group forum that is more 'process' than content-focused. I was attending this group although another therapist was facilitating it. And yes, in my original reflection on the interaction I was mindful of what I brought into the room with me. First of all, I was new to this particular patient in group. Also, while learning my name (off of my name badge), I suspect the patient saw my cross and this also elicited or prompted the content that he shared. Finally, the topic of spirituality in general and Christianity in particular is a common and relevant theme not only for this patient but also others attending AA and other 12-step meetings. In addition to the patient voicing his dismay for Christian ideology, the discussion was on how to 'understand' the concept of God and a "Higher Power" as espoused by AA. I think these details are important in contextualizing the clinical encounter and how the discussion during supervision strayed from the clinical encounter and in that sense, was a boundary crossing.
In any case, I am seizing it as an opportunity to reflect on my personal decision to wear a cross. I agree that wearing my cross is not as 'indirect' of a disclosure as I had originally described. It is a 'direct' disclosure in that it is visible to clients. It is a direct disclosure of fact (that I am Christian) and arguably, a disclosure of feeling. And yes, I am choosing to wear a symbol of an affiliation I have. This is much the same way that married folks wear a wedding band as an external symbol. The symbol communicates something, although this is not the primary purpose.
So I am now reflecting on whether it is important to me to be a "Christian" therapist, as I define it. And my answer now is yes for a number of reasons.
I am a visible minority and have an unusual name, which are inadvertent self-disclosures. I have become increasingly more aware of the implicit and explicit effects of this 'in the room'. And honestly, the more comfortable/secure I have felt in my identity, the more comfortable and skillful I have become in addressing this as a therapist, whether it is by merely acknowledging that I have an usual name, or disclosing where I am from. My view is everything in the room is "grist for the mill". Looking different and having a unique name elicit client curiosity, at minimum. My decision to disclose, when appropriate, also introduces new and unique variables in the moment, session, and perhaps across sessions.
Wearing my cross, when I do, is a part of my identity as much as my skin color. I realize this is a unique meaning I have ascribed to it due to my prior experiences. In my native country of Egypt, Christians identify themselves by wearing a cross, having a cross tattoo on the inside of their wrist, and/or more lately, by not wearing the head scarf (a practice of Muslim women). So, my 'practice' of wearing a cross is normative as per my culture of origin, which is a part of my 'bi-cultural' identity. So, within a culturally-sensitive framework, you can re-interpret wearing my cross as not as an 'aggressive' form of expression as you may have initially appraised. Second, I have spent a portion of my life in one of the most religiously oppressive countries (Saudi Arabia). Although I was young, I suspect the value I place on the basic right to identify and express one's faith has been shaped by those experiences.
All of this brings me to the 'culture' of psychology and the culture of psychotherapy. Unless American graduate training programs in clinical psychology are very different from Canadian (I am a Canadian also), we shy away from issues of spirituality in general- never mind a specific religion. We are trained as therapists to conceptualize and treat folks in a holistic manner, yet rarely do we give the same benefit to the therapist as 'person'. Yes, I am choosing. I am choosing to be authentic and in my system of beliefs & values, my 'behavior' of wearing a cross is congruent. To 'consciously hide' my cross or to abstain from wearing it all together except on weekend would be incongruent with a core-value. And yes, I am cognizant of the 'potential' and 'risks' I am taking in the assumptions clients make about me and the potential of alienating some. And I take responsibility for it by paying attention, exercising genuineness, and addressing such issues in a sensitive, professional, and non-defensive manner. As much as psychotherapy is a place and forum for people to tell their stories, it is about 'sharing' it with another human being. Sharing it 'with' a therapist, who may or may not be to their liking and who, right away or eventually, elicits painful material. How I 'handle' these issues as they emerge, in the first few moments or much later, and my ability to provide a corrective experience is the more important issue than artificially suppressing and/or defensively withholding a part of my person therapist that I view as important.
I am grateful for your response that challenged me to think of the issue in a very different way. I was focusing on the behavior of my supervisor in how he carried that conversation. This detracted me from the real issue, which is whether it is important to me and why. I suspect as I grow, my feelings about this may change in some way.
Thank you again for the dialogue.

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 3 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Nope, i haven't and honestly, i don't care enough to look for it either. Most "background stories" are bullshit anyways so it would hardly matter. Your posts tell enough about your fear of women and the need to be dominated by them, i was just curious about the real source of them but, then again, considering your "hahaha" reply, i wasn't that far off. Do you flash out a fake laugh in real life too when someone is right about something you don't want to admit?

No, that's all one you. Man you gotta stop this projecting. I really don't see where logic comes from other than a desire to have a "better relationship" with your mother. Again, your life behind the keyboard is all the evidence I need.

Dragontongue joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 10 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
*applause* I love it when people are true to themselves. :)

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 1 minute later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Thank you Sifti for your account- it does make me wonder now how much the therapist beliefs carry significance in clients' minds. I wonder if you would have felt comfortable asking the therapist right away or even expressing your sense that she wouldn't get where you guys are coming from. I wonder too if she noticed just how hard you were trying to get your point across and where that came from. Because, the reality is even though she is a Christian as you noticed a cross, you don't really know how she defines that. And you don't know if THAT is what accounted for the difficulty you experienced in being understood by her. Making assumptions about folks, although a natural thing, is not helpful in a therapy setting. Consider if you had nurtured a strong therapeutic relationship with her, and felt understood and helped, and learned years later that she was Christian. Would you have changed how you felt about her during the work?
>
> Hexi- thank you also for your feedback. Yeah, I get it. I am taking that risk. As much as it your right to leave the office, it is my right to be myself and exercise what is important to me. It is my duty, however, as a therapist to handle the nuances of that- whatever they may be.
>
> And Dr. Robert:
>
> Thanks for your reply. I appreciated your acknowledgment of the complexity of the issue because part of what I was reacting to was the seeming lack of awareness or sensitivity to these complexities by my supervisor.
> To answer your question and provide more of a context, this is a new patient I had met in a dual diagnosis substance abuse outpatient program. The client interaction I described occurred in a group forum that is more 'process' than content-focused. I was attending this group although another therapist was facilitating it. And yes, in my original reflection on the interaction I was mindful of what I brought into the room with me. First of all, I was new to this particular patient in group. Also, while learning my name (off of my name badge), I suspect the patient saw my cross and this also elicited or prompted the content that he shared. Finally, the topic of spirituality in general and Christianity in particular is a common and relevant theme not only for this patient but also others attending AA and other 12-step meetings. In addition to the patient voicing his dismay for Christian ideology, the discussion was on how to 'understand' the concept of God and a "Higher Power" as espoused by AA. I think these details are important in contextualizing the clinical encounter and how the discussion during supervision strayed from the clinical encounter and in that sense, was a boundary crossing.
> In any case, I am seizing it as an opportunity to reflect on my personal decision to wear a cross. I agree that wearing my cross is not as 'indirect' of a disclosure as I had originally described. It is a 'direct' disclosure in that it is visible to clients. It is a direct disclosure of fact (that I am Christian) and arguably, a disclosure of feeling. And yes, I am choosing to wear a symbol of an affiliation I have. This is much the same way that married folks wear a wedding band as an external symbol. The symbol communicates something, although this is not the primary purpose.
> So I am now reflecting on whether it is important to me to be a "Christian" therapist, as I define it. And my answer now is yes for a number of reasons.
> I am a visible minority and have an unusual name, which are inadvertent self-disclosures. I have become increasingly more aware of the implicit and explicit effects of this 'in the room'. And honestly, the more comfortable/secure I have felt in my identity, the more comfortable and skillful I have become in addressing this as a therapist, whether it is by merely acknowledging that I have an usual name, or disclosing where I am from. My view is everything in the room is "grist for the mill". Looking different and having a unique name elicit client curiosity, at minimum. My decision to disclose, when appropriate, also introduces new and unique variables in the moment, session, and perhaps across sessions.
> Wearing my cross, when I do, is a part of my identity as much as my skin color. I realize this is a unique meaning I have ascribed to it due to my prior experiences. In my native country of Egypt, Christians identify themselves by wearing a cross, having a cross tattoo on the inside of their wrist, and/or more lately, by not wearing the head scarf (a practice of Muslim women). So, my 'practice' of wearing a cross is normative as per my culture of origin, which is a part of my 'bi-cultural' identity. So, within a culturally-sensitive framework, you can re-interpret wearing my cross as not as an 'aggressive' form of expression as you may have initially appraised. Second, I have spent a portion of my life in one of the most religiously oppressive countries (Saudi Arabia). Although I was young, I suspect the value I place on the basic right to identify and express one's faith has been shaped by those experiences.
> All of this brings me to the 'culture' of psychology and the culture of psychotherapy. Unless American graduate training programs in clinical psychology are very different from Canadian (I am a Canadian also), we shy away from issues of spirituality in general- never mind a specific religion. We are trained as therapists to conceptualize and treat folks in a holistic manner, yet rarely do we give the same benefit to the therapist as 'person'. Yes, I am choosing. I am choosing to be authentic and in my system of beliefs & values, my 'behavior' of wearing a cross is congruent. To 'consciously hide' my cross or to abstain from wearing it all together except on weekend would be incongruent with a core-value. And yes, I am cognizant of the 'potential' and 'risks' I am taking in the assumptions clients make about me and the potential of alienating some. And I take responsibility for it by paying attention, exercising genuineness, and addressing such issues in a sensitive, professional, and non-defensive manner. As much as psychotherapy is a place and forum for people to tell their stories, it is about 'sharing' it with another human being. Sharing it 'with' a therapist, who may or may not be to their liking and who, right away or eventually, elicits painful material. How I 'handle' these issues as they emerge, in the first few moments or much later, and my ability to provide a corrective experience is the more important issue than artificially suppressing and/or defensively withholding a part of my person therapist that I view as important.
> I am grateful for your response that challenged me to think of the issue in a very different way. I was focusing on the behavior of my supervisor in how he carried that conversation. This detracted me from the real issue, which is whether it is important to me and why. I suspect as I grow, my feelings about this may change in some way.
> Thank you again for the dialogue.

And clearly forgets about the fact that such "values" have nothing to do with he patient and that are hunreds of differents kinds of religions out there. W what you're doing bloody selfish. Fuck your religion and help the patient. No one and I mean no one with any "real problems" wants to discuss god at the minute they see that stupid god damn cross. No amount of excuse making can convience me of your sincerity just as it didn't with those Teen Challenge AOG fuckwits. Get back to the real world.

W (OP) replied with this 7.7 years ago, 8 minutes later, 4 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Brilliantly-Minded...
I encourage you to exercise better boundaries. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Your last post is disrespectful, presumptuous, and simplistic. For you, a therapist wearing a cross would be a deal breaker. I respect that, and it is a good thing that you will always have choice in who your therapist is. But, the fact that this issue is so disproportionately emotionally charged for you does not give you the right to be disrespectful to another person.

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 8 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
If no one with any real problems wants to discuss God when they see the cross, then there's no problem with her wearing it, right? After all, no one said she was wearing it because she's insanely evangelical. She's wearing it because it's part of her identity. I know a Scot who wears a kilt all the time. That doesn't mean he desperately wants to discuss his Scottish heritage, now does it? It may affect the way people see him, but then his accent does that too.

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 7 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Brilliantly-Minded...
> I encourage you to exercise better boundaries. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Your last post is disrespectful, presumptuous, and simplistic. For you, a therapist wearing a cross would be a deal breaker. I respect that, and it is a good thing that you will always have choice in who your therapist is. But, the fact that this issue is so disproportionately emotionally charged for you does not give you the right to be disrespectful to another person.

Respect is a word you would not understand. Of course, it does when it suits your world view. It's also for everyone else. Please explain to me why the hell the issues of one particular religion would of any interest to a client. The immediate concerns seems to out weight that. Besides this, you have million crack pot opinions that come with that belief. Sex before marriage, homosexuality and abortion. Man, I can smell the incompetence already. Mate why the hell should you expect any real issues to be discussed with you as if it was an insurance seminar. Oh and quanity does not equal quality. It does not need be overly compicated to get a point across. I could spend my time, sitting here, writing a long winded post about posterous nature of all religions, the problems caused by them, but of course as I said before, it's like trying to teach a dog how to use a human toliet and expect without command to actually do that instead of where ever in the house nature decides. Besides, if I'm wrong, the church down the road, would best suit this purpose. Take one from white wolf, if you you're going to waste a patients time, go council someone who cares. Let the patient decide what part of his/her life are revelent to recovery.

BrilliantlyMinded double-posted this 7.7 years ago, 3 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> If no one with any real problems wants to discuss God when they see the cross, then there's no problem with her wearing it, right? After all, no one said she was wearing it because she's insanely evangelical. She's wearing it because it's part of her identity. I know a Scot who wears a kilt all the time. That doesn't mean he desperately wants to discuss his Scottish heritage, now does it? It may affect the way people see him, but then his accent does that too.

Please identify why this revelent again. Why do you think it wouldn't invoke disgust towards the therapist. Mate, I've seen this crap happen before, and nothing but hipocracy seems to flow from such people. Either you're incredibly stupid, or just too damn polite for anyone to give a crap about.

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 10 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> too damn polite for anyone to give a crap about.

Yay, I'm Canadian! :D

'Course it could make them dislike the therapist. But should she be insincere about who she is? You'll figure it out sooner or later, better it's not a nasty surprise. Don't you think?

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 5 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

BM, you seem to be just another 1 trick pony, it's just pathetic.

W The fact that you care so much about professing your belief to everyone is evidence enough that you can't, wont and don't know how to be objective about this. You are directly putting YOUR needs and desires over the patients and as such, fail at your profession by default. I sincerely hope someone with authority confronts you over this and doesn't let you practise psychiatry. You said it yourself, you are willing to turn away patients because of a stupid trinket. I guess you would be fine with being refused treatment at a hospital ER because you wear a cross. It's their right, right? No, you would be a hypocrite.

W (OP) replied with this 7.7 years ago, 13 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

This is my final post
Hexi- I feel strongly about my faith, and symbol of it does not conflict with being a therapist. I care enough to be aware and mindful of what I bring in the room and hence this discussion. As for your example of the ER- I don't turn away clients. If you go to an ER and you don't like your doctor because you have a bias that you can not overcome, you request another one. The doctor would not turn you away.
Clearly this topic is emotionally charged, and it has opened my eyes.

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 7 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> BM, you seem to be just another 1 trick pony, it's just pathetic.
>
> W The fact that you care so much about professing your belief to everyone is evidence enough that you can't, wont and don't know how to be objective about this. You are directly putting YOUR needs and desires over the patients and as such, fail at your profession by default. I sincerely hope someone with authority confronts you over this and doesn't let you practise psychiatry. You said it yourself, you are willing to turn away patients because of a stupid trinket. I guess you would be fine with being refused treatment at a hospital ER because you wear a cross. It's their right, right? No, you would be a hypocrite.

Haha Hexi is always fun. Nah, I just don't try ways that never work. I know full well that she would intellectualise what you said (Neurotic Mental defense) then make an excuse in the same manner so she can continue as she were. Unlike you hexi, I know how peoples' minds.... tick. Nevertheless you're still right anyway about this here. Dragon, you need to just shut the fuck up. It's been made clear already that shit isn't revelent anyway, religion should be avoided, she needs to simply help the patient, not debate about theology.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 4 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Except that "getting another doctor" is not always an option for someone in urgent need of mental help. For many it takes real guts to seek it in the first place and the time between getting another doctor and actually going there might be enough to push someone over the edge. If someone who hates religion comes to you and keepss bashing you for your religion, you would end the relationship. Don't even try to lie about it, i've seen enough religious people in these positions. Not wearing a trinket would avoid this entirely. Unless a patient wants to talk about religion, it should never be present in a doctors office in any context.

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 2 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> This is my final post
> Hexi- I feel strongly about my faith, and symbol of it does not conflict with being a therapist. I care enough to be aware and mindful of what I bring in the room and hence this discussion. As for your example of the ER- I don't turn away clients. If you go to an ER and you don't like your doctor because you have a bias that you can not overcome, you request another one. The doctor would not turn you away.
> Clearly this topic is emotionally charged, and it has opened my eyes.


That's bullshit, and you know it. You came here hoping for us to encourage (and provide you with some help in legal advice I'd imagine) you to rage out in some hopefully legal manner against your supervisor. That's the only reason. What you found was people unwilling to put up with your incompetence as a doctor and as a psychologist.

(Edited 31 minutes later.)

BrilliantlyMinded double-posted this 7.7 years ago, 1 minute later, 5 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Except that "getting another doctor" is not always an option for someone in urgent need of mental help. For many it takes real guts to seek it in the first place and the time between getting another doctor and actually going there might be enough to push someone over the edge. If someone who hates religion comes to you and keepss bashing you for your religion, you would end the relationship. Don't even try to lie about it, i've seen enough religious people in these positions. Not wearing a trinket would avoid this entirely. Unless a patient wants to talk about religion, it should never be present in a doctors office in any context.

Haha, quite right.

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 14 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
If someone who hated black people came to me and kept bashing me for my skin color, I'd end the relationship too. Doesn't mean I should use skin bleach around KKK-type jerks, does it?
Anyway, yeah, she'd probably be better off advertising as a Christian psychologist so religion-haters could avoid her, but.... Do you really think it's a good idea for her to pretend she doesn't hold Christian beliefs during therapy? Obviously those beliefs are going to affect how she works with her patients. I think a cross is a good sign, so you can run away (or not) instead of being suckered into thinking she doesn't have a Christian world-view.

(Edited 52 seconds later.)

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 12 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> If someone who hated black people came to me and kept bashing me for my skin color, I'd end the relationship too. Doesn't mean I should use skin bleach around KKK-type jerks, does it?
> Anyway, yeah, she'd probably be better off advertising as a Christian psychologist so religion-haters could avoid her, but.... Do you really think it's a good idea for her to pretend she doesn't hold Christian beliefs during therapy? Obviously those beliefs are going to affect how she works with her patients. I think a cross is a good sign, so you can run away (or not) instead of being suckered into thinking she doesn't have a Christian world-view.


Man you're a fucking idiot. See, hexi latest post for more answers, moron.

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 25 seconds later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

If her christian worldview becomes apparent in therapy without the patient asking about her view, shes already failed as a professional doctor and should stick to working in a church, away from actual practise.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 6 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Eh, maybe, but if I go in for therapy, I wanna know if my psychologist is an enthusiastic evangelical Christian before I let her start messing with my head. You know?

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 14 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Eh, maybe, but if I go in for therapy, I wanna know if my psychologist is an enthusiastic evangelical Christian before I let her start messing with my head. You know?

If that's the case, it's still unethical for her to practice anyway, which brings us back to what she should be doing. Not practising.

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 18 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Even if she's not going to try to convert me, I'd still prefer a psychologist who seems happy with themselves as they are. Someone who feels like they have to hide parts of themselves in order to make me more comfortable is probably not someone I'd feel okay about opening up to. Of course, I don't want them shoving their faith down my throat, but a little cross ornament or something like that isn't what I'd call 'shoving'.

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 17 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Yes and someone who was raped multiple times by a priest would be *ok* with it too, because you are? You cannot know what comes walking through your door as a psychologist and if you can't keep your retarded belief in an absentee father-figure to yourself, you have no business treating people with severe mental problems, many which are actually directly related to zealous parents or community. Religion is a fucking disease that has NO place in a psychologists office where rationality and facts should prevail, not magic.

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 9 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
*shrug* Like you say, it's just my opinion, my preference. But you know, whether you believe a big man in the sky created everything with magic, or that nothing got busy and created itself then exploded and bam--everything got started, or something totally different, you're gonna believe something. You can't really not be affected by your beliefs, either. Me, I like to know what beliefs are affecting the people I'm talking to on a regular basis.

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 4 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Agreed. Dragon, perhaps you're too naive to understand but even nativity can give way to reason. You on the other hand seem pretty insistent on this cross crap. You ever heard the expression, digging your own grave. Well that's the impression I get when talking to you. You seem only interested in being right, because of your precious ego has wounded. Hexi and I have made this clear, Dr. Robert has made this perfectly clear and your sitting at your keyboard trying to convince us of an opinion that has already been refuted to death. Get over it, move on and admit you were wrong.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

WhiteWolf replied with this 7.7 years ago, 5 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Bye, W.

(Edited 20 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 4 seconds later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Nevermind, can't be bothered.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 19 minutes later, 7 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

--

(Edited 6 hours later.)

Dragontongue double-posted this 7.7 years ago, 5 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> You on the other hand seem pretty insistent on this cross crap. You ever heard the expression, digging your own grave. Well that's the impression I get when talking to you. You seem only interested in being right, because of your precious ego has wounded. Hexi and I have made this clear, Dr. Robert has made this perfectly clear and your sitting at your keyboard trying to convince us of an opinion that has already been refuted to death. Get over it, move on and admit you were wrong.

Ugh. What can I say? I'm really bored! I don't really give an emu's left little toenail about the stupid cross or swastika or KKK hood or anything. Obviously you shouldn't wear stuff that makes your patients uncomfortable, jeez. But it was kind of... not boring... to wrangle with you about it, so... yeah. I'll stop now. Thanks for playing!

Differential joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 12 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

I can't offer an unbiased opinion on the topic of a therapist wearing religious symbols. I'm against it. I was against religion as a kid when I didn't have a choice, and I'm against it now that I do.

But I can say that I almost never see a thread in which BM posts that's he's not narcissistic, aggressive and insistent on having the last word. The behavioral pattern speaks for itself.

Differential double-posted this 7.7 years ago, 38 seconds later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

---

(Edited 20 seconds later.)

BrilliantlyMinded replied with this 7.7 years ago, 13 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> > You on the other hand seem pretty insistent on this cross crap. You ever heard the expression, digging your own grave. Well that's the impression I get when talking to you. You seem only interested in being right, because of your precious ego has wounded. Hexi and I have made this clear, Dr. Robert has made this perfectly clear and your sitting at your keyboard trying to convince us of an opinion that has already been refuted to death. Get over it, move on and admit you were wrong.
>
> Ugh. What can I say? I'm really bored! I don't really give an emu's left little toenail about the stupid cross or swastika or KKK hood or anything. Obviously you shouldn't wear stuff that makes your patients uncomfortable, jeez. But it was kind of... not boring... to wrangle with you about it, so... yeah. I'll stop now. Thanks for playing!

I had fun too. :)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 57 seconds later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

You know DT, in the future, you should put some actual basis behind stuff. People will just start to ignore your posts and then you will always be bored here, talking to yourself. Oh, and you shouldn't quote posts that were edited before you posted.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 11 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

GDI ignore this.

This is WW btw. Sorry Hexi. I was using your name on a tormenting run and crossed over to the wrong fucking forum.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 4 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Ooh cool, where? I have no intention of ruining your fun but i might join in sometime.

(Edited 8 minutes later.)

Sifter replied with this 7.7 years ago, 40 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

> Thank you Sifti for your account- it does make me wonder now how much the therapist beliefs carry significance in clients' minds. I wonder if you would have felt comfortable asking the therapist right away or even expressing your sense that she wouldn't get where you guys are coming from. I wonder too if she noticed just how hard you were trying to get your point across and where that came from. Because, the reality is even though she is a Christian as you noticed a cross, you don't really know how she defines that. And you don't know if THAT is what accounted for the difficulty you experienced in being understood by her. Making assumptions about folks, although a natural thing, is not helpful in a therapy setting. Consider if you had nurtured a strong therapeutic relationship with her, and felt understood and helped, and learned years later that she was Christian. Would you have changed how you felt about her during the work?

W, I'm sorry you've decided not to talk further about this. There are strong opinions and language here, and the odd poster who has yet to be house-trained, but the topic warrants serious consideration and discussion.

I can tell you this: therapist beliefs carry HUGE significance in many clients' minds, for good reason. There are many situations in which your belief system will powerfully inform your treatment choices - but as clients, we have little information about your belief system. Symbols stand in for huge gaps in knowledge. I knew this was potentially an issue in my situation, and that someone who was Christian was much more likely to understand that situation in a particular way - was much more likely (though not guaranteed) to interpret certain behaviours of mine as pathological in themselves, rather than potentially healthily expressive.

At the same time, my therapist's belief system was not something I actually wanted to confront. My energies were entirely taken up with trying to keep myself and my relationship intact. I was just hoping like hell that we had therapists who could step into our worlds, and listen and understand openly. Though concerned about it, I did not want to be a 'bad client' by making the issue about the therapist's beliefs, instead of being willing to critically examine my own behaviour. I also did not want to divert my energy into a) convincing the therapist to disclose, b) investigating the therapist's theological beliefs and practice beliefs far enough find out if it really was an issue, or c) debating with her whether I was making unnecessary assumptions. I did not want to deal with any of that, and it seemed more efficient just to let it play out, as whatever she said I was ultimately going to have to take it on trust anyway. Almost no one is actually going to admit their beliefs are in the way.

Yes, she noticed how hard I was working, and she took it for quite a long time as more evidence that I was entrenched in my pathological pattern. Eventually she seemed to revise this opinion, at which stage my husband bailed out.

I recently began with a new therapist who has read all my case notes very thoroughly, and who started our work by volunteering very openly and clearly his position on this issue: that this behaviour need not be pathological or 'out of bounds' (which is not to say I get a free pass). For all I know, he is a Christian too (though it seems unlikely), but the reality is I don't care. He established straight away that he is able to enter into my world view. Whatever his beliefs are, they are not limiting our interaction.

You can say that assumptions are better off left out of the therapy room, but it's just self-protection for a client to watch out for these things. And it's just reality that Christianity is a belief system with some common (not universal) tendencies to it. I have Christian friends of all different stripes, but I don't *assume* that the average Christian on the street is down with homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, sex before marriage and so on. That would be dumb. And given that my therapy is about me, not the therapist, I am unlikely to give many chances to someone wearing a cross - that in itself seems an indication of an unwillingness to step outside their own theology.

I'll say this too - as a client, I am experienced, fairly self-aware, fairly stable and fairly articulate. If it's an issue that I wouldn't be willing and able to talk out with you, who do you think would?

I agree with the others, that you are probably better off working as a professed Christian Counsellor.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Jennifer joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 29 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Heh some people not in their "right mind" would bypass the bullshit and just rip the cross from your neck. And what would you do? Turn the other cheek and let them do more? Or would you ask them to leave because you can't forgive them 70x7? Want to defend your right to your beliefs? I'm sure that could be arranged. That one little cross opens up so many doors for you to be fucked with. You really wanna put yourself in that position never mind that the whole point of therapy has just gone out the window? And its your own goddamn fault.

Some people would rather die fighting the hypocrisy of christianity then submit to letting one of them in.

(Edited 48 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 7.7 years ago, 1 hour later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

"Brilliant"Minded--

Second warning: Your attitude on this Forum stinks of disrespect. Disagreement is fine by me, and a good argument which reveals and defines issues can be helpful for everyone. However, I will not tolerate any more of your rude, scornful replies to real questions from people seeking help and advice here, replying to which is the number one intention of the Forum, not providing you a space for your contemptuous insults. This has nothing to do with disagreement or debate, but has everything to do with addressing the issues, not insulting the person. No further warnings. The next unsuitable post will be deleted, and you will be banned.

By the way, people who call themselves brilliant never are. People with above average intelligence understand how little they know and understand of all there is to know and understand. People who are not just above average in intelligence, but "brilliant," not only know how little they understand, but know that there is a great deal they will never understand. You, in my view, do not seem "brilliant" at all. In fact, based on the absurd misogyny you injected into this threadher question had nothing to do with whether she was a man or a womanyour intelligence seems below average. You can be forgiven for being thick-minded and tiresomethat's not your faultbut even stupid people can learn to be minimally courteous, and that is required here.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

dr-robert double-posted this 7.7 years ago, 44 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

W--

Thank you for writing back. After reading, I understand better why the cross seems important to you, and why you would want to keep it visible. I do not see this as equivalent to wearing a wedding band, however, and I suggest that you try to discern the difference, not with a view towards eventually wanting to hide the crossclearly that is not on your present agendabut to be sure that you take full responsibility for the very pointed message a cross inevitably sends. I hear that you view the message as primarily cultural, which is understandable given your minority position in a primarily Islamic nation, but to many, if not most, people, the primary message of a cross is not cultural, but religious. In other words, if you choose to advertise your Christianity, you are advertising an entire world vieweven one about the "after-world"which skin color, or a wedding band certainly do not. Yes, your values inevitably become part of any therapy, but, as I tried to say, those values would better emerge graduallyafter the client does some revealing of his or her valuesthan be trumpeted from the outset.

Now you say that when first meeting the client, your appearance as a visible minority and your unusual name are "inadvertent self-disclosures," but that is not correct. They are not "inadvertent" in any sense of that word, but unavoidable. There is a great difference there, which you, who are learning to "hear with the third-ear," should attempt to appreciate.

Finally, you say that, "We are trained as therapists to conceptualize and treat folks in a holistic manner, yet rarely do we give the same benefit to the therapist as 'person'." In my view, and you may of course disagree, that is true, and it is proper. Therapy is about the patient, not the doctor. When you are with a patient, you are performing a service, including becoming involved in a relationship which is (and should be, as I see it) one-sided from the beginning. You are there to serve the needs of the patient, not to serve yours except the need to practice ones profession, not to have the patient serve yours. Those needsyoursneed to be addressed within the context of your personal life, not your professional one. This is not true of all professions, but it is true of psychotherapy, so if you really mean that you desire personal equality between patient and doctor within the consulting room, you may be training for the wrong profession. I am a bit worried that you have not learned how to make this distinction, or even if you know why it needs to be made. I can imagine your suffering as a minority person in an antagonistic climate, but the consulting room is not the place to heal that, unless it is someone else's consulting room, and you are the patient, not the doctor.

Of course this is your decision. I only suggest that it be based not so much on what is good for youin fact, not on what is good for you at allbut what is good for the client.

I wish you well in your new profession,
RS

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 1 hour later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Well, I was kind of trying to argue from the OPs point of view, or a position similar to it... it's not a bad thing to try arguing from viewpoints different to yours sometimes, right? *hopeful* The quoting thing, though... my internet's really slow, so I didn't see his post had changed until I'd already posted my reply, and then it just seemed like so much trouble to edit it--should I do that now?

[edit]
There. Done. Sorry! :)

(Edited 34 minutes later.)

SHERRY joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 2 hours later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

W - YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN ! YOU CAN NOT PUT THAT OUT OF YOU MIND LEAVE THAT JOB AND GO TO A "CHRISTIAN COUNSELING GROUP" AND THEN YOU WILL NOT HAVE THSES ISSUE TO DEAL WITH !! AND NEITHER WILL CLIENTS WHO DO NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH ANY THING TO DO WITH CHRISTIAN IDEAS !! I KNOW I GO TO ONE ! BUT "EVEN THERE YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO FORCE FEED YOUR IDEAS AND BELEFS OR YOUR CHOICE OF RELIGION ON A CLIENT !! WHERE I GO IT IS NOT EVEN BROUGHT UP UNLESS THE CLIENT BRINGS IT UP AND WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IT. . .

Bookshelf joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 3 hours later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

...so...much caps....head about to.... assplode. Tell mother... I died... Saving orphans... >>AsSpLoSIoN<<

...erk.

Jennifer replied with this 7.7 years ago, 14 minutes later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

LOL

sherry joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 44 seconds later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

too small a ____ so little control !!!! OOohhhh OOooHhhoooo nnnoooooooo zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 5 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
DT, i do that all the time too (not here though) but you should first form a basis for your argument that is solid and not flailing about. Just arguing for the sake of arguing without any valid points is pointless and annoying.

Dragontongue replied with this 7.7 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thanks, I'll bear that in mind. :) But you know, it's hard when the argument I'm working with is... well. What kind of solid basis is there for something like "psychologists should be able to wear whatever they like even if it makes their clients uncomfortable"? I thought I maybe came up with a few valid points during my flailing, though... maybe.

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 18 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Not really, no. :)

BloodWolf replied with this 7.7 years ago, 45 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Even the people at McDonalds have to wear uniforms and they don't get paid anywhere near what a psychobabble expert does. The more I read this forum the more it pissed me off. Who is W to think she can just do as she damn well pleases? After all that time going to community college and studying.. she didn't learn a damn thing about being sensetive to the feelings and needs of her patients.

Be well Jennifer.

(Edited 24 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 7.7 years ago, 15 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Or maybe you're not the center of everyones universe as much as you would like to believe?

BloodWolf replied with this 7.7 years ago, 11 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Or maybe you're not the center of everyones universe as much as you would like to believe?

Is that what your daddy told you? Coward...

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Don't worry wolfie, you're the center of my universe, the reason for my being. I post here to get your approval.

Jennifer replied with this 7.7 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Is that the best you could come up with? That just made you look desperate for a good insult.

BloodWolf replied with this 7.7 years ago, 13 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Don't worry wolfie, you're the center of my universe, the reason for my being. I post here to get your approval.

Dude, don't beat me while I am down. Also for the record... you are the only reason I stay here. As sad as it sounds.. knowing there are simular people to myself in the world is the only thing that grounds me.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Is that the best you could come up with? That just made you look desperate for a good insult.

Well I don't want to fight with you. I would like to have a common ground but I can't remove this asshole persona. It comes with sarcasum. All I can say is that I'm sorry.

Jennifer replied with this 7.7 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

I know you're full of shit but that was cute the way you tried so whatever. lol

(Edited 29 seconds later.)

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You should know that it's the only time to beat someone, us benig similiar and all. ;)

BloodWolf replied with this 7.7 years ago, 6 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> You should know that it's the only time to beat someone, us benig similiar and all. ;)

I lack your finesse. Have you found any good forums to join or harrass? Everyday I do the "psychopath forums" search it comes up with the damn victims forums.
My time here seems to be coming to an end.

Jennifer, if you have serious suggestions this is the time to give them. I need to shape up this forum image. In games there is VOIP which allows people to hear your voice and know you are either taunting them in a friendly manner or just joking around but after girlfriend told me I was an asshole in forum view... gotta fix that. It's not the imagine I wanted but sarcasum never translates well.

Hexi replied with this 7.7 years ago, 33 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

I've never done the "psychopath forums" search. I honestly stumbled here by accident. This is the only forum of this nature that i frequent. I've visited some since but they all just full of shit.

BloodWolf replied with this 7.7 years ago, 29 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Well, I've yet to find one that wasn't a victim forum.

Johnnywalker joined in and replied with this 7.7 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Excellently put Robert. While I don't understand the full circumstances, it seems a little unethical to putting your personal needs against the patients. Psychotherapy is as with all medical professions, about the patient.

Tripcode joined in and replied with this 7.2 years ago, 5 months later, 6 months after the original post[^] [v] #0

Points to ponder:

#1. Many people wear crosses as fashion statements. Not all cross-wearing is done because somebody is religious, per se.
#2. If a person IS wearing a cross for religious purposes, it does not automatically mean that s/he will impose a religious viewpoint on you or give advice that contains religious dogma.
#3. If a therapist DID give religious advice (when a patient has expressed s/he is nonreligious), that of course, would be wrong, and grounds for a grievance.
#4. Not all therapists are a "good fit" for all people. If one's therapist does not seem to be a good fit (crosses or not)....GET A NEW THERAPIST. You have free will in this matter. No one is holding a gun to one's head to stay with a specific therapist. You must find what works for you.
#5. If one's therapist is religious, and one is not religious, one could also view the sessions as an opportunity to practice pluralistic tolerance. That is, accept that the therapist is religious and that you are not. See what this therapist has to offer you IN SPITE OF different worldviews.


Someone should be able to visually express their religious viewpoints, whether Christian, Satanist, atheist or whatever in the clothing and visuals they wear. This woman is entitled by our laws to wear her cross. I believe people should put less emphasis on superficial things, like what someone looks like on the outside, and more emphasis on the content of one's character and the type of therapeutic healing one is able to receive from a therapist.

Hexi replied with this 7.2 years ago, 34 minutes later, 6 months after the original post[^] [v] #0

You could also read the thread before posting, so people don't have to repeat themselves. It's also not about the legality of the matter. Why wou dig up this ancient thread anyways?

Brittney joined in and replied with this 7 years ago, 2 months later, 8 months after the original post[^] [v] #0

I am a pagan and honestly, the only problem I would have is if my therapist told me that what I was thinking was wrong or even upon hearing my religious views told me I needed God in my life. I think that if you want to wear your cross you should be able to, but let your patience know that you respect what they believe. The way I see it, a therapist is there to listen and give advice when it is asked for. I recently had an arguement with my therapist about my religious views, but I told her that she had no right to tell me I was wrong and I had no right to tell her she was wrong and that I wanted to get back on with what I was having issues with. I realize some patience are simply rude and argue these things for the drama...that's probably why they are there though, just remember that.

x joined in and replied with this 7 years ago, 20 hours later, 8 months after the original post[^] [v] #0

Hi W,

"Initially, what I found difficult working with him was his excessive needs to approve and be informed about everything (i.e., micro-manage). Cognizant of my status as an 'intern' on the power totem, I let it go. Besides, I figured that his inexperience as a faculty/supervisor in the internship program probably accounted for his excessive need to 'be boss'."

Perhaps you might consider analyzing your words I cut and pasted out of the first paragraph and quoted. I wonder if the issue of wearing the cross is more related to a power struggle with your supervisor than it is about your values? If this is the case, you might be compromising the best interests of your patients more than you are currently aware.

You note his reaction may be related to his inexperience [but you are also inexperienced] and you also emphasized your gender right at the beginning of your essay like so [(female)] and later provided us with some related background about your identity issues.

I am not against self disclosure of religion depending on the circumstances, and my psychotherapist disclosed his religion to me after we got to know one another. Sometimes it happens out of necessity (my therapist takes vacations during times when most people around me do not) or benefits the patient. But I wonder if there are feelings at a deeper level involved here.

AI joined in and replied with this 7 years ago, 5 days later, 8 months after the original post[^] [v] #0

What?!?? Oh my (SHIT!)! She's wearing a cross!??!
So this is where the world is going huh? I had to stop going to my therapist because I saw her wearing a scarf. Didn't she know I was almost f*cking HANGED with a scarf when I was a kid? Did she really frigging think I go to therapy just so I can see her support the very thing that almost destroyed my childhood and almost took my life? It seems therapists are getting more and more ignorant as time goes on. Where are the naked therapists? Back in my grandparents' days there were loads of them. Only they were called whores, not therapists.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> People with above average intelligence understand how little they know and understand of all there is to know and understand. People who are not just above average in intelligence, but "brilliant," not only know how little they understand, but know that there is a great deal they will never understand. You, in my view, do not seem "brilliant" at all. In fact, based on the absurd misogyny you injected into this threadher question had nothing to do with whether she was a man or a womanyour intelligence seems below average.
People with above average intelligence also understand they know a whole lot more than lots of other people. Stupid people think they understand a whole lot more than other people but they don't. Anyway what you said is incorrect, intelligent people aren't always modest. Modesty is an admirable trait but it's not a requirement for intelligence. Take Isaac Newton for example, he was a genius of his time but he definitely wasn't modest.
People often connect their own strong traits to intelligence.

(Edited 25 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 7 years ago, 33 minutes later, 8 months after the original post[^] [v] #0

Good point. I was projecting, and you busted me on it. Thanks,
RS
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