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Topic: Trying to break away from my famiy's religion

Psyche started this discussion 5.1 years ago #2,656

Over the past four to five years, I have been finding myself at odds with my family's strong Christian faith. I've been slowly moving toward Agnosticism and Spirituality, rather than one following any true religion.

I'm scared to express my true feelings about God to most people for fear that they will chastise me at every turn. I've tried before, but I'm always forced to retreat back by there disaproving looks and reponses. To the devout, such as my aunt and grandparents, religion is always a touchy subject. I've come to see it as a game of "I'm right and you're wrong so shut up."

Everytime they bring God or the Bible up in conversation I find myself trying to dodge it rather than tell them my true feelings on the matter, or I just plain lie and say what I know they want to hear.

I have nothing against any faith. I believe that religion is a private matter. I'm just tired my family's beliefs being forced down my throat.

What should I do/say when I'm forced into these talks?

dr-robert joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 hours later[^] [v] #0

Tell them that religion is like a big penis. You may have one, and you may even feel proud of it, but you shouldn't try to shove it down anyone's throat.

Anonymous C joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 55 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

That's helpful. You sound angry -or high.

Narc joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 13 minutes later, 6 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Maybe you should try having some time alone with one of your siblings or your father or mother and try to find the right time to bring the topic up, if it bothers you. People usually listen to you more seriously when they're alone. Bringing it up in a family meeting around a lot of people with similar opinions most likely won't bear fruit. There isn't really a right way of going about doing something like that and obviously it's going to be pretty hard. I personally have a father who hates religions and I can only imagine his reaction if I suddenly told him I've converted to, say, Christianity. That's the kind of picture I get from your situation. I even avoid telling him that I'm agnostic. It's not that he'd throw a huge tantrum but I still prefer to keep it to myself as it's really none of his business. Anyway, I can relate to your problem, at least on some level.
Anyway, if they're pressuring you about that, then my advice would be to try to find the right moment to chat to one of your family members alone about it. I'm sure that after all is said and done you're still their son/daughter.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

You'll have to forgive him. The reasons for the reply is probably the heated conversation in the other topic. It's most likely partly my fault as I was quite provocative. I'm sure he'll give a proper reply later on.

(Edited 15 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

I am neither angrey nor high. The idea that people cling to fairy tales, motivated entirely by fear of death, and then have the gall to try to impose their silly credulity upon others is, in my view, one of the saddest features of the human condition.

Religionall religionis nothing but bullshit stories for frightened, emotionally childish people.

OK?

dr-robert double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

And, if you don't recognize a joke when you hear one, perhaps you are angry.

Hexi joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

You know what, nevermind.

(Edited 8 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 13 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

I liked your post before you "neverminded" it, Hexi.


“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.”
― Bertrand Russell

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 14 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

I've tackled this topic enough to know it's futile, and only causes aggravation and hate. I think my point has been made clear, several times already.

People refuse to see the underlying cognitive dissonance that envelops the entire western society that is a direct result of christian dogma and instead always, ALWAYS, take it as an attack on their personage. I'm tired of it.

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

Molly joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

To OP,

Keep listening to your gut. It was right all along.
Lots of people are too scared to think for themselves.
So this brings you back to full circle in a way. Now you are at a point where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your feelings about being indoctrinated were right,so do you hide who you are? No. Do you shove your truth down their religious throats? No. Now it's time to just be. Knowing you do not have to prove yourself,in order to feel justified(like what religious folks do).
Live,while enjoying being a free thinker. Do not get compassion for their bondaged minds,mixed with you needing to feel accepted for NOT being tied like they are.

I'm speaking from my experience,since this is what I need to hear for myself. Maybe it might be benificial for you too.

Ps. When you are stuck in a position where someone lashes out at you for expressing your heart.Know it is their fear coming out,hidden by anger. It has NOTHING to do with you. This is a great time to see where to let compassion flow. All while not hiding your truth to accommodate them.

Molly double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 6 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)


Love it! That god damn fear keeps people tied to these beliefs. I'm not sure if I'll ever get over the frustration of this. I have been there all my life,and now on the other side,my heart feels broken WHEN I think about it. It keeps people prisoners in their minds. But not even just religion. All/any beliefs keep people prisoners. Beliefs aren't reality. Not even close. Needed to vent...

Ailonna joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 24 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Tell them that religion is like a big penis. You may have one, and you may even feel proud of it, but you shouldn't try to shove it down anyone's throat.

^^^ Can I use this? And my goodness Doc, didn't realize "this" was in you! I like you more now :D

Psyche (OP) replied with this 5.1 years ago, 17 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thanks


(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> People refuse to see the underlying cognitive dissonance that envelops the entire western society that is a direct result of christian dogma and instead always, ALWAYS, take it as an attack on their personage. I'm tired of it.

me too Hexi


(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Love it! That god damn fear keeps people tied to these beliefs. I'm not sure if I'll ever get over the frustration of this. I have been there all my life,and now on the other side,my heart feels broken WHEN I think about it. It keeps people prisoners in their minds. But not even just religion. All/any beliefs keep people prisoners. Beliefs aren't reality. Not even close. Needed to vent...

Its always good to vent, Molly, gets out all the negative feelings

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Tell them that religion is like a big penis. You may have one, and you may even feel proud of it, but you shouldn't try to shove it down anyone's throat.

I've heard that joke many times Doc

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 16 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Yes, not original with me, but I like it, and it fit so well here I could not resist.

Molly, Bravo! It's not religion but all unsubstantiated belief which keeps people in chains. Religion, however, is a special, particularly egregious problem because none of its claims can be disproved. For example, if you tell me that smoking marijuana causes insanity, I can easily refute it with countless studies. But if you tell me that when I die I will meet Jesus and all my dead loved ones, there is no way I can even investigate that claim, much less falsify it.

Anonymous H joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 22 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> > Tell them that religion is like a big penis. You may have one, and you may even feel proud of it, but you shouldn't try to shove it down anyone's throat.
>
> ^^^ Can I use this? And my goodness Doc, didn't realize "this" was in you! I like you more now :D

The more educated a person is the higher the likeliness they will be atheist. The more educated and confident the atheist the more easily they may dismiss the religious. I'm still to terrified of Christian extremists to be capable of simply dismissing like the dear dr I go into full essay "why you suck" rants...

@OP

> Over the past four to five years, I have been finding myself at odds with my family's strong Christian faith. I've been slowly moving toward Agnosticism and Spirituality, rather than one following any true religion.
>
> I'm scared to express my true feelings about God to most people for fear that they will chastise me at every turn. I've tried before, but I'm always forced to retreat back by there disaproving looks and reponses. To the devout, such as my aunt and grandparents, religion is always a touchy subject. I've come to see it as a game of "I'm right and you're wrong so shut up."
>
> Everytime they bring God or the Bible up in conversation I find myself trying to dodge it rather than tell them my true feelings on the matter, or I just plain lie and say what I know they want to hear.
>
> I have nothing against any faith. I believe that religion is a private matter. I'm just tired my family's beliefs being forced down my throat.
>
> What should I do/say when I'm forced into these talks?

Been observing forum for a lil bit figured I could help you slightly... Firstly congratulations on critical thinking which is usually a requisite for leaving a family religion yay you... Next your afraid of being chastised... understandable I guess chastisement is a bore... Just don't try shoving your opinion in it's hard to do but being dismissive like the doc was is really the best way for handling things like that. "oh you believe in God? which one is he on this list of over 1000 deities?"... You don't emotionally invest yourself doing that and then if your chastised then it's just a bother not like your really being criticized... also when your not emotionally invested like that your in control of the conversation and may also get the person to see how absurd they're being... additionally it's easier to be funny when dismissive... I hear if you get someone to laugh there must be a grain of truth to it for it to be funny and comedy disarms people... If they learn to laugh at themselves and their religion it's good for them as well as you...

Now the bible and religion when they bring it up and your desire to dodge... dodge it... but take control while you dodge it... is there a relevant source of information (whether supportive or critical of their biblical position) on the subject? "That's a lovely story you told me but what does the (insert respectable scientific journal here related to subject) say about the (subject)?" you could ask this question while being non confrontational it should break up their religious jive talk momentarily or may push them out of their comfort zone to where they change the subject... Though you may wanna word it differently obviously I'm just suggesting in those quotes...

If all else fails... yes your right religion is a private matter... simply become a etiquette nazi pick up a copy of miss manners and inform them that now is not the time to be discussing religion... Most of this also can be applied for politics if/when you reach that age...

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 hours later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Good suggestions, anon H.

I am not afraid of religious zealots of any stripe, and I do not confine my distaste for their power trips to Christianity:

http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/purity.html

By the way, I am not an atheist. The entire matter is absurd and not worthy of either belief or non-belief. I am not an "atheist" regarding Santa Claus either. Why bother?

I oppose religion only because the harm it does, added to the stupidity and credulity of its "faithful," offends my sensibilities. Simple as that.

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

dr-robert double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 25 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. . . . For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups … I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them."
---Albert Einstein, 1954

Psyche (OP) replied with this 5.1 years ago, 17 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Yes, not original with me, but I like it, and it fit so well here I could not resist.

It does

Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 52 seconds later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. . . . For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups … I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them."
> ---Albert Einstein, 1954

Guess Einstein was a fool after all.

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Good suggestions, anon H.
>
> I am not afraid of religious zealots of any stripe, and I do not confine my distaste for their power trips to Christianity:
>
> http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/purity.html
>
> By the way, I am not an atheist. The entire matter is absurd and not worthy of either belief or non-belief. I am not an "atheist" regarding Santa Claus either. Why bother?
>
> I oppose religion only because the harm it does, added to the stupidity and credulity of its "faithful," offends my sensibilities. Simple as that.

Pardons if I offended with the use of atheist you speak in a way I commonly hear from atheists and/or agnostics I suppose I should of asked first before ascribing bad force of habit. I'm still reading through your purity exchange you linked took a bit of reading before I found the relevance to why you posted it. I know I should not fear zealots and that my over-reactive nature often feeds into them and hardens their position but being that I identify homosexual and knowing what those who aren't even that fervent can do (I remember watching Matthew Shepherd on the news as a child) let alone a zealot often causes me to view them as a threat on a very basic level it can be quite difficult to stop yourself when your on emotionally reactive autopilot survival mode. Being Christianity is the dominant religion grouping in America that is merely what I am most aware of I'm certain if I lived in other regions I would become equally aware of other religious zealotry. I just attempt to avoid zealotry in general... and sit back with eye twitches when apologist family members gather while attempting restrain myself from talking while they self reinforce...

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Yes, I rarely call anyone on that stuff personally myself. Just not worth the trouble. Too predictable. I do it here because this is a place for honesty and rinsing off the acquired bullshit. Helping others to see their bullshit and peel some of it away is really the best we humans can do for one another in my view.

dr-robert double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 14 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Einstein was far from a fool. But why would you say that based I the quote I offered? Makes no sense to me at all.

Jennifer joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 53 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Then maybe you could add an "I think" to the beginning of your rants. That way it is your opinion and not an accusation and/or attack.
"Religion—all religion—is nothing but bullshit stories for frightened, emotionally childish people." This is bound to offend someone.
It makes me think of those white supremacists who knows for a fact that black people are the scum of the earth and don't care who hears them say it and don't want to hear anything in favor of black people no matter how true it may be.

(Edited 32 minutes later.)

Narc joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 12 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Robert I know you probably won't recognize me since I've usually just posted anonymously but I've been on the forum a pretty long while. During this time you've become a lot more sarcastic and offensive than what you used to be. What happened? I understand that Internet can do that to a person, I'm a good example of that, but it kind of makes me sad since you used to be different. I'm not saying this to offend you or anyone but it's like you've become this person who's really hard to reach and chat with.
I don't know, you just had this friendly 'aura' about you that I can no longer really feel.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 21 minutes later, 15 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Then maybe you could add an "I think" to the beginning of your rants. That way it is your opinion and not an accusation and/or attack.
> "Religion—all religion—is nothing but bullshit stories for frightened, emotionally childish people." This is bound to offend someone.
> It makes me think of those white supremacists who knows for a fact that black people are the scum of the earth and don't care who hears them say it.

Consider though that white and black persons cannot change their skin color, and we have evidence that nurture is a far greater indicator then skin color as to a persons potential. Whereas one's religious affiliation is... an affiliation... you may choose to be a Christian, Jew, Mosleem, and ETC ad naseum... Further that we have no evidence that any of these religions are true let alone if 1 were to be true which of them that would even be only opinions on which is true. Additionally we know it to be a truth that the most religious members of society are often the most vehemently opposed to knowledge, and progress. Those white supremacists for instance from your example are more likely religious then not... granted there are racist atheists, and etc but a disproportionate number of racists would be religious... It is those very same religious institutions that once upon a time professed opposition to interracial marriages in much the same way they do now the same to homosexual marriages... To make it even more egregious however many of the religious are not merely content to keep their belief opinions to themselves, but must actively proselytize, and ram their belief down the throats of others... Then we consider the opinions of people who would be in authoritative positions such as the dr, a physicist, or a biologist... imagine what they would think when their field of profession requiring years of education and further countless hours keeping up to date with new information continually found... and then... some boorish zealot condescends to them based upon nothing, but their faith derived from their belief opinions who not only want to condescend, but in such a manner as to demand their unfounded unproven beliefs be treated as factual, or equal to known theories, practices, and etc within these various fields and placed within textbooks, media, and literature to be disseminated to children in schools all the way up the academic ladder into college hoping to indoctrinate and proselytize as many as they possibly can...

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 14 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Some of this is just absolutely totally factless. Many religious people are top scientists because they are looking for evidence one way or another. And so, what, is Dr. Robert giving religious people a taste of their own medicine? Not all religions are like that. Muslims don't do that. It is actually against their doctrine. They don't seek out converts at all. They form their own countries where they can practice in peace. Of course, ANY belief will have its extremists, not just religious beliefs. I can run around screaming that feminists are frightened and emotionally childish and I can also go bomb a mens club. If someone did something like that to the Dr then he has every right to be pissed... at that person, not at the whole institute of religion. That would be like me saying because my father was bad that all fathers are bad or even all men are bad. I just find it all very closed minded. Not all religious people are sick and twisted or "frightened, emotionally childish people." Many have studied years and years and have made the choice to believe a religion, not out of fear.

But while we're quoting Einstein...

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

(Edited 16 minutes later.)

Anonymous I joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 13 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Dr. Robert does protest too much, hence he revels more than he wishes. His battle with religion has been greater than one might think. While he may make bold statements, taking grand stands on the subject of the Christian faith he is little more, than a child throwing a temper tantrum in the presence of his all powerful earthly father.

The fact of the matter is Dr. Robert cannot now nor has he ever been able to fully eascape the nagging knowledge that eats away at him. What Knowledge you wonder, the knowledge that there is in fact a God one all knowing all supreme,and all powerful God.

I would submit to you this thought, somewhere in Dr. Roberts past someone was able to reach him with the truth about the God the one true God he saw that the Christian faith was not and never has been the bullshit he claims to believe it to be. However, something happened that so upset Dr. Robert he became angry and bitter setting out to reject all that he knows deep within his mind to be true. He has made it his life's mission to use all that psychology and what he sees as logic to disprove and discount all religions as nothing more than bullshit.

Which he no more belives than I do.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Look, if you like religion, welcome to it. I don't care one way or another what you believe. It's amazing to me how personally you all take any words which question the entire matter of belief in fairy tales. But if that's where you at, fine by me. Nothing personal in it. I calls 'em as I sees 'em, and that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I don't think he would agree with you. I don't agree with you. I think you are trying to play on his emotions.

Jennifer double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You think I take it personally. I'm not. I just find your words, or maybe even the way you express your beliefs to be more emotional than intellectual. You know, I know you know, that not all religious people are like that. I find it very closed minded of you to attack them.

Narc replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hey Anonymous l,

You are entitled to your own belief and you probably mean well but I don't think that kind of posts will solve any disagreements. I'm not accusing you of anything but please if you're just trying to make a joke then I'd like to ask you not to. It might not mean a lot to you but it might mean a lot to the person who made the topic.
cheers

(Edited 4 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

By the way, Jennifer. No real scientist is "looking for evidence of God." What possible evidence could there be, footprints? And very, very few top scientists are religious at all.

The latest study I could find showed these results:

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

So out of 100 scientists, seven have some personal belief in God. And that was fourteen years ago. The numbers have been dropping, as you can see from the chart.

BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9
Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3

And these numbers have declined since then as well.

Finally, don't bother to try to psychoanalyze me. You can't do it. I have had no negative personal experiences with religion at all. I was raised in a non-religious home, thank god. Like many intelligent people, I see the amazing level of denial, magical thinking, avoidance of evidence, and all that silly stuff which almost all religious people carry with them, and I am, personally, appalled. Fairy tales for children. Big Daddy in the sky. Mitt Romney, for example, claims to believe fully in Mormanism, which means that after death he will become the ruler of his own planet. Pu-lease! And this guy wants to be President?

Don't take it personally, Jennifer. If you want to say your prayers, go for it.

Finally, it is well known that Einstein was an atheist and only used the word "God" as a device to suggest that science could not know everything--that there was a mysterious dimension to life:

Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding an anthropomorphic deity, often describing it as "naïve" and "childlike". He stated, "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems."

On 22 March 1954 Einstein received a letter from J. Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant who had worked as an experimental machinist in New Jersey. Dispentiere had declared himself an atheist and was disappointed by a news report which had cast Einstein as conventionally religious. Einstein replied on 24 March 1954:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
---Dukas, Helen (1981). Albert Einstein the Human Side. Princeton: Princeton University Press

(Edited 10 minutes later.)

Ann I joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 33 seconds later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Hey Anonymous l,
>
> You are entitled to your own belief and you probably mean well but I don't think that kind of posts will solve any disagreements. I'm not accusing you of anything but please if you're just trying to make a joke then I'd like to ask you not to. It might not mean a lot to you but it might mean a lot to the person who made the topic.

WHY would you think that I am making a joke?

Narc replied with this 5.1 years ago, 6 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Don't take it personally, Jennifer. If you want to say your prayers, go for it.
Why do you do this :/
You know Jennifer isn't religious.

It seems like the whole forum has this kind of a bad atmosphere that everyone's being sucked into.

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Cute. One, I'm not psychoanalyze you. I wouldn't even know how. What you say comes across very angry, and even now sarcastic, which I don't really deserve unless its some kind of payback for the way I acted ages ago. What is the name of that study? I would like to look it up and maybe I can point you in the direction of some other studies. Yes, I agree that there are some religious fruitcakes but not all of religious people are like that. Not all believe in life after death because they've never been there. Again, you are focusing on all of the weirdo's and not looking at the rest of the group.
And about what you said about Einstein, why is it so hard for you to understand that most religious people are doing exactly that?

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 16 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

No, I do not know that. How would I?

And to reply to your earlier post, I like to be gentle and friendly if possible, but only insofar as it still allows honesty. I have said this often. I will repeat it here: If you ask me a question, be prepared for a totally honest reply.

I looked back on this thread, and see no sarcasm at all coming from me.

dr-robert double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Jennifer: The source is in the 23 July 1998 issue of Nature by Edward J. Larson and Larry Witham: "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 1998; 394, 313.]


I said "psychoanalyze" because of these words of yours: " If someone did something like that to the Dr then he has every right to be pissed... at that person, not at the whole institute of religion. That would be like me saying because my father was bad that all fathers are bad or even all men are bad. I just find it all very closed minded. Not all religious people are sick and twisted or "frightened, emotionally childish people." Many have studied years and years and have made the choice to believe a religion, not out of fear."

BTW, I never said that all religious people are sick or twisted. But I do see religion as primarily based on fear--the fear that "I" will stop existing, the fear that life has no "meaning," or the fear that without the support of "God," I will not be able to deal with the ups and downs of life. If you see it another way, OK. No use debating this. I say what I see, take it for what it is, or leave it if you it does not work for you.

(Edited 33 seconds later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Well, yeah, I said that because it was suggested that something like that has happened to you. Is that psychoanalysis? Cool! Thanks for the source.
I do see it another way and I absolutely hate people being bashed because of the fruitcakes in their group. And I can guarantee that as long as you keep bashing them all I will be there to back them up. Unless you ban me or something.. and then they will have to stand on their own.
Besides, death is some scary shit. I can't fault anyone at all ever for being afraid of death. I don't even like being hit, let alone dying. I think its inhuman not to be afraid of things like that. If some people have found a belief that makes it more comfortable for them I cannot look at that as a negative thing. It's something I wish I had for myself. I don't think it makes them emotionally immature either.

(Edited 31 minutes later.)

Narc replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

:)

That's more like the doc I used to see here


Anyway, Psyche, how's things?

(Edited 1 minute later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 28 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

One last try, Jennifer. I am not "bashing" anyone. I am stating my views. Nothing about it is personal.

And my attitude towards religion has nothing to do with a few "fruitcakes." Is Mitt Romney a "fruitcake?" He doesn't seem to be, yet he believes (or at least says he does) that after death he will live forever on his own planet. Others imagine that after death they will be in heaven with Jesus and all their loved ones, but if they "sin," they will burn in hell for eternity. These are not the beliefs of a few fruitcakes. This is mainstream religious doctrine which mainstream Christians say they believe.

To repeat, in my experience (and I have a lot--I have even had evangelical preachers for clients), people believe this silly stuff because:
1. They are afraid to stop existing at all.
2. They are afraid that without "God" life will have no "meaning."
3. The are afraid that with "God" they will not be able to handle the ups and downs of life.

That is how it looks to me, and this is not about "bashing" anyone.

Ask yourself this, Jennifer, why should religious ideas be put into a special category, different from any other kind of ideas, so that the religious ideas are somehow seen as deserving extraordinary protection from examination and criticism? Why? In other words, somehow human beings have fallen into a kind of strange superstitious attitude which holds that calling into question ideas in this one exclusive category, religion, is somehow especially intolerant, and abusive of the so-called "faith" of the people who believe in them--what you are calling "bashing."

I owe no special respect to religious ideas which seem foolish to me, any more than I owe respect to economic or political ideas which seem foolish to me. Or is, in your view, religion something "special?"

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 9 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/28/AR2010052801856.html

" Rice University sociologist Elaine Ecklund offers a fresh perspective on this debate in "Science vs. Religion." Rather than offering another polemic, she builds on a detailed survey of almost 1,700 scientists at elite American research universities -- the most comprehensive such study to date. These surveys and 275 lengthy follow-up interviews reveal that scientists often practice a closeted faith. They worry how their peers would react to learning about their religious views.

Fully half of these top scientists are religious. Only five of the 275 interviewees actively oppose religion. Even among the third who are atheists, many consider themselves "spiritual."

Here's another little thing I found but there is a lot of info in there and I don't have the time or desire to read through it all.
http://www.tektonics.org/scim/sciencemony.htm

Jennifer double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
They don't deserve any more protection than anything else. I am all for you or anyone helping a person to investigate their personal beliefs about such topics. I am completely against attacking a person because of what they believe, though, which is what it looks like, to me, what you have done. Not to any one person but to the whole of religious people. Just because you say it isn't bashing doesn't make it look any prettier. That is my only issue with it. If you really have a problem with it and it is really causing a problem for the person then it is a problem.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Mekay joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 17 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

My ex works at a pretty prestigious university in
PA. She works alongside some of the most brilliant
professors/top scientists there. She herself is atheist.
She expresses annoyance with them on a regular basis
for having some belief in God and doesn't understand it.

It is such an ignorant stereotype that all religious people
are "uneducated" or not very intelligent. In fact, its preposterous.
I find people with this argument are smug, self righteous, and
think they have some smart card that is limited to atheists.

Who gives a crap? Live and let live. I am so sick of atheists going off on
a tangent about religion. It's like they are constantly trying to convert
others into their doctrine of "God doesn't exist" which is highly hypocritcal
since they are the first ones to accuse christians and other religious types
of "shoving it down their throat'

Most christians I know are afraid to even admit it in the presence of others
for the fear of atheist back lash. I see a lot of atheist "shoving down the throat" crap
more so than christian crap these days. Not saying christians don't do it, but it's just interesting
atheists do hte very same thing they accuse christians of.

If you really believe in "live and let live" atheists. Then please just fucking do it already.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 9 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Jennifer, the people in that survey are not "top scientists," they are scientists, and many are actually technicians working in techical fields which have nothing to do with any of this. Among the actual "top" scientists, the Noble Prize winners, almost all are either atheists or agnostics.

Mekay, I am not an atheist. I find the entire matter absurd. Too absurd to NOT believe in. I am not a non-believe in Sasquatch either. I just find the idea foolish. That's where religion is in my book. Fairy stories. Not worth either believing in or not. As for where this comes fromthe belief, I meanchildren are inculcated into it from earliest days, long before they are in any position to evaluate anything intellectually. Then, many of them are stuck with it for life.

As for your saying that, "It's like they are constantly trying to convert
others into their doctrine of "God doesn't exist" which is highly hypocritcal
since they are the first ones to accuse christians and other religious types
of "shoving it down their throat'" I must disagree. Yes, that does happen, but it is the religious people who do most of the shoving. For example, these people try to ban abortion (as if they had the right to tell a woman they don't even know what she can do with her own body). Once they try to impose their values upon society at large, they are asking for push-back. If they did not preach and try to convert, or would refrain from trying to impose their religious fantasies about what "God" wants or doesn't want (how absurd--who could possibly know such a thing?), there would be little or no resistance.

BTW, in the Western world, this is almost entirely an American thing. In Europe, religion does not enter into politics at all, and relatively few people are interested in it.

I am NOT questioning your right, or anyone's right to believe what you like. Just leave the rest of society out of it. Religious beliefs should NOT be imposed upon others by making laws to support your beliefs and force them upon others. OK?

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

This is why I edited my post, and said what I said. It's pointless.

Narc joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I am NOT questioning your right, or anyone's right to believe what you like. Just leave the rest of society out of it. Religious beliefs should NOT be imposed upon others by making laws to support your beliefs and force them upon others. OK?
This I can agree with. Though I do not think Mekay would disagree with it either.

Still, I'm not sure if all religious people should be condemned for that. I'm personally not from America so I don't know how it is there.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I don't know why you end with ok?
As if I agree with the shoving of my beliefs, or
anyone else's for that matter, down anyones throat or in politics.
That's what I mean about the typecasting. You just naturally
assumed I agree with those things without knowing anything
about me but my belief preference.

Hexi,
What's pointless trying to prove you're right about atheism?

That proves my point. That's the shoving down throat thing I am talking about.
Your point shouldn't be to prove to me God doesn't exist.

Otherwise, if it's to explain to me that one should not shove their
beliefs down others throats I totally agree.

See the hypocrisy? Probably not.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 42 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Exactly. Thank you. I quite enjoy the blatant presumptions here.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ok, so I take top Nobel Prize winning scientists out of my statement and will just say that many very good scientists are religious. However, I think agnostics nobel prize winners should be included.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Yes, Hexi, I agree. People who need that kind of belief will never be open to reason. They become frightened, upset, or angry if someone will not play along with the fairy tale about Big Daddy in the sky who tells people what to do and not do, and who is so narcissistic that he loves prayers (eats them for breakfast). God "loves" everyone, BUT if you fuck up, you will suffer--possibly forever. Amazing! And if I say it is BS, I will be accused of "bashing" or "forcing my ideas down someone's throat."
Far from it, religious ones. Believe what you like, just don't ask me to bow to it.

This thread started with a serious question, and I replied in the best way I could: if you don't like preaching, tell your religious relatives to get out of your face. What's wrong with that advice? Nothing that I can see.

(Edited 30 seconds later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yes, it will be called bashing and sarcasm and mocking and the like because that is what it is. I really don't think you are going to convince someone to change their beliefs this way. I think what you will do is give more fuel to the fire for those in opposition to help in their bashingness.

(Edited 4 minutes later.)

Narc replied with this 5.1 years ago, 45 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Cheers for the thumbs up mekay but hey yeah I think we should go about this in a more polite manner. So, let's not get angry about it alright? I don't think it's on purpose but some of the stuff said is a bit provocative. I do like the fact that you take a stand, though.

:)

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 12 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
that's the self righteous thing.
Christian people have no reason.

I agree with Jen on the parallel with white supremacists.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I don't thinks anyone disagrees with your advice to OP.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 58 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Mekay-- I know nothing about your beliefs, and never said I did. Frankly, I don't care what you believe. You are defending something, but I have no idea what it is. I am not trying to prove I am right about anything to do with this. It's not even an issue for me one way or another. To repeat, there are atheists, but I am not one of them. I find the entire matter absurd. Like sea monsters, Sasquatch, or UFOs. Meaningless to me. If you have another way of seeing this, fine by me.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I'm not angry. Not even in the slightest.

Narc replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Yeah that's cool, just checking :)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 35 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

No, Jennifer. It is NOT bashing. I am saying what I believe about this matter. Suppose I said that I find the American Republican party's economic ideas to be foolish and useless, would that be "bashing?" I have said nothing sarcastic either. You are wrapped up in this in a personal way, and taking it all personally. But it is not personal. That's just the way, I, Robert, feel about religiona silly mess. That's not "bashing." I feel that way about many things which other people say they likerap music, for example. Why is religion any different?

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
No, I wouldn't find foolish and useless to be bashing. However, if you go on further to say pro-lifers are religious quacks and those against homosexuality are homophobes and start mocking their beliefs like you did above, then yes. If you, as a psychologist, start saying they are emotionally immature then yes.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 55 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
No bashing would be saying Christians have
a lack of ability to reason
or that we're uneducated, not very intelligent
ect.

I guarantee if I told you that you were unable
to reason, uneducated, and produced, at best,
a sub par intelligence level

you would be pretty ticked. Whether you deny it or not.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You will have to show me those words, Jennifer. I did not write them, or at least do not recall it. I never used the word homophobe. I never used the term pro-lifer. What I said is that I dislike the way organized churches try to use the political system to make laws regulating the conduct of others who are not part of their churches or their belief systems.

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I am neither angrey nor high. The idea that people cling to fairy tales, motivated entirely by fear of death, and then have the gall to try to impose their silly credulity upon others is, in my view, one of the saddest features of the human condition.

Religion—all religion—is nothing but bullshit stories for frightened, emotionally childish people.

Yes, Hexi, I agree. People who need that kind of belief will never be open to reason. They become frightened, upset, or angry if someone will not play along with the fairy tale about Big Daddy in the sky who tells people what to do and not do, and who is so narcissistic that he loves prayers (eats them for breakfast). God "loves" everyone, BUT if you fuck up, you will suffer—possibly forever. Amazing! And if I say it is BS, I will be accused of "bashing" or "forcing my ideas down someone's throat."

There are two examples. I never said you said anything about homophobes or anything, but that you mocked.

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 47 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

No, Mekay, you are completely incorrect. I don't care what you think of me. You don't even know me. And some religious people are intelligent enoughI have friends like thatbut when it comes to this one subject, they put it in another compartment, and do not allow their intelligence to penetrate there. This is what happens when young children's minds are filled with superstition. I consider teaching such ideas to children to be a form of abuse. Many are stuck for their entire lives having to try to believe such nonsense (nonsense, in my opinion) while struggling all the while with doubt.

Instead of debating with me, Mekay, ask yourself what exactly you are defending.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ok, Dr. Robert, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you may have come across some closed mindedness with religious people and that even some very intelligent ones have closed off their intellect where their beliefs about religion are concerned. Could you give an example of what you are talking about... without mocking?

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Um read jen's quote of yours up there.
That's what I'm defending.

The bashing, then denial of such bashing
is ridiculous.

it's like you bash then put the recollection
of the bashing in another "compartment"

Sorry to be sarcastic, but give me a break.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Mekay-- I have done no "bashing." I have said how I see these matters. If it feels like "bashing" that is because you are clinging to something, and are frightened that it might not be true. If you really fully believe it, you would not care what anyone thought about it. Is that not obvious?

Now I am taking Hexi's advice. I am done with this. Believe what you like. All of this obviously means a lot more to some of you than it does to me. I never even think about "God" unless someone brings it up.

(Edited 4 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
No fair. I was really interested in an example. Maybe it would have opened up my own eyes to something I can't see. As you know, I was raised in a religious household.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

OK, Jennifer. If you have a real question for me, I will try to reply.

decka joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Religious people might not be immature as a whole, but the part of them that maintains their belief is like an immature child's defense mechanism.

Where do you go when you die - probably the same place as before you were born - nowhere.

Probably not a nice thought unless you're suicidal, but you can either accept the discomfort that this could be reality, or you tell yourself a fairy story to comfort yourself and run away from it.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 49 seconds later, 18 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
That was a real question. When you wrote about your friend it got my interest. I was curious in what way specifically has he shown to be closed off in regard to religion? I've not come across this with religious people I also find intelligent because they are so open minded. I have come across very closed minded religious people that will totally shut down and get crazy if someone questions their beliefs. I don't find them very intelligent though. I just didn't want you to put anyone down to make your point. I am sensitive to that, for whatever reason.

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 18 minutes later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

OK. I think Calamity has it about right. If you believe it, then it may mean something to you, but if you don'tand I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe such stuff, none of itthen it means nothing. That's where I am with it: means nothing.

OK, I have a religious friend, a woman of around 70 who was raised Catholic and has never really doubted that Jesus hears her prayers, that when something "good" happens, it happened because Jesus made it happen, etc. In other words, this world is ruled by Jesus. Now otherwise she is logical enough, and intelligent enough to understand many things, but she has this one area absolutely blocked off. She was told these stories from birth, and so they cannot ever be subjected to the scrutiny that she would use on any other matter.

Now there was a major hurricane a few years ago and in a certain neighborhood, all the homes were destroyed, and quite a few people were killed. One person on that block somehow survived, and my friend called it a miracle that showed God's kindness in sparing him. I asked her politely and seriouslyI wasn't arguing, I really wanted to know"What about the others? If God is so kind, why did he not spare all of them?" She got very upset with me and said, "We have no right to question the workings of God."

If that ain't superstition, I don't know what is, Jennifer. All her intelligence, all her critical faculties, all her curiosity (which she really does have about other matters) just end right there. "God"which is an idea put in her mind by words she heard as an innocent babyis a lockbox where questions and doubt are not allowed.

(Edited 29 seconds later.)

dr-robert double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

I've gotta go, Jennifer, but if you reply I will see it tomorrow. Be well.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 19 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

That is a good, and interesting example. However, I wonder if it has to do with her age. I don't know many religious people my age who would say something like that but the older generation, certainly. My generation would probably say something like "God hated the other people" or more seriously that they didn't know. Some might say, "God works in mysterious ways" but that would be about the same as saying they don't know and don't care to really think about it. But, then, I haven't hung out with serious church people. I'm sure there are some extremists still around but most of the religious people I come across are a lot more open minded. We have been forced in one way or another to be tolerant of peoples beliefs regarding religion, and I for one think its a good thing.
It takes a lot out of me to carry around hate for religious idiots when I've got more important things to be hating on.

(Edited 24 minutes later.)

Jennifer double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
No, why do that when people like you can do it for me?

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 26 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Since some here miss the entire point of WHY I (and I suspect the doc as well) have such disdain for the entire notion of A god, not just Yahweh (Christian, Jewish and Islamic god and yes, they believe in the exact same god.) and why I cannot even pretend to respect anyone who does so, I will explain it in detail. If you don't want to read it, then don't, but in that case never, ever respond to it.

First, I'll illustrate the ridiculousness of the active believer, the church goer but I will go into the non-believer as well later on so please, actually READ what I'm going to write here as I'm going to give my best effort to do so and hope that you take the time to give what I say SOME thought before dismissing it.

Point 1.

Kid: Mom, Santa isn't really real, is he?
Mom: No.
Kid: Then why would you lie to me about it?
Mom: It's just some harmless fun.
Kid: But why?
Mom: To make you do your chores and behave before christmas.

Kid grows up, doesn't believe in god.

Kid: So let me get this straight, you told a bullshit story about a magical man that knows everything we do and if we don't behave and do the proper christmas things before christmas, we will get punished to keep kids obedient. You also believe such a story is childish. You live by a set of rules someone else told you and then, on sunday, you prepare to go to a church to do something so a magical man who knows everything doesn't punish you when you die and if I don't believe it I'll get punished?

Mom: ...you've lost your way to jesus, I feel so sorry for you.

Can you see the problem here?

Point 2. This also applies to people who aren't actively religious.

If a person is willing to take an entire system of acting and interacting based on a claim by a dude in a robe, if they allow something with no basis on anything you can even observe, let alone confirm, what else are they willing to let dictate their lives? If they believe one outlandish, self-contradictory and magical explanation to everything, what's to stop them from not questioning something else, equally ridiculous? How can you trust such a person to make a rational decision about anything when they hang an irrational decision on their sleeve, as a badge of honor?

If one unsubstantiated claim can rule their entire lives, what is stopping another one to do the same?

Point 3. Respect.

Another thing I often hear is that you should respect ones personal belief. This is incredibly hypocritical, and is in fact cognitive dissonance.

If you adhere to your religious beliefs and practises, you are called devout and everyone should respect your own personal choices.

If you have a shrine to an alien mothership in your basement, wear a tinfoil hat and make trips to mountains to hear the signals of the great saviors of our planet, the aliens, you will, at best, be ridiculed by everyone else, including those that think personal beliefs should be respected, and at worst, locked away in a mental institution.

If you wear a robe, start a group, move to a compound, isolate yourselves and sing songs in some made up language, you are called a cult leader and a lunatic by the same people who say that personal beliefs should be respected.

The truth is that belief in a deity is the only superstition you are not allowed to ridicule. This is how religion affects EVERYONE. If you don't respect belief in a god, you're an asshole and hate the person believing but if you don't respect belief in aliens or elves or even vampires, no one bats an eye. To lend respect to a superstition lends it credibility, if it has credibility it can be portrayed as something it is not.

These are the reasons and rationalizations why I will never be quiet about the nonsense of religion. It infects our entire society regardless of your own beliefs.

Molly joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 9 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Molly, Bravo! It's not religion but all unsubstantiated belief which keeps people in chains. Religion, however, is a special, particularly egregious problem because none of its claims can be disproved. For example, if you tell me that smoking marijuana causes insanity, I can easily refute it with countless studies. But if you tell me that when I die I will meet Jesus and all my dead loved ones, there is no way I can even investigate that claim, much less falsify it.


This thread is so right up my alley. I did need to vent,and felt something release in me,by you,and the OP feed back,telling me it's good to vent.

To Hexi,
(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I've tackled this topic enough to know it's futile, and only causes aggravation and hate. I think my point has been made clear, several times already.

Your comments aren't in vein,imo. Believe it or not,there are countless,especially young folks out there,trying to find their way out of the dogmatic chains they only have ever known. Of course,with many who have the deep seeded need to believe will hate on you,but there is a middle ground of people,trying to find their way out..So this is why I am grateful for you putting in the energy of writing your thoughts on the subject.

One last point I have for anyone who cares. There was a quote that I do not remember word for word...or who wrote it,but it was something along the lines of,"I had no opinions on not existing prior to my birth.I will not have an opinion when I do not exist again."

This is a powerful statement for me. So what people are saying is,is THIS is reality? I better quit running,and enjoy it all.Even the suffering parts,because once I die,all sensations end. Now I am not so scared of pain.I choose pain,because I am grateful to have the chance to experience life. But who is the 'I' that is experiencing the sensations? Where did the 'I' come from? I guess that's a whole different discussion.;)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I love the correlation between people
who are literally insane and people who believe in God.
Totally comparable.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 seconds later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Hexi, have you ever actually met someone who really honestly truly believes in elves and vampires? For those that believe in aliens I think they have every right to believe in them and if they make a shrine I would respect their belief just like any other. It's their right. It's not stupid. As long as they aren't sacrificing people to the aliens or whatever then it doesn't bother me at all. I don't think they should be locked away either because they have just as much reason to believe in what they believe as anyone else.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Good point.

Hexi, I just have a problem when people feel superior
because of their beliefs.

I don't know care if you're christian or atheist.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 33 seconds later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
No, Molly, I think that in itself has become a very very religious philosophy. Just because it has been repeated and has become a mantra for so many people.

(Edited 26 seconds later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I love the correlation between people
> who are literally insane and people who believe in God.
> Totally comparable.

Why are they insane?

(Edited 35 seconds later.)

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 22 seconds later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

What has?

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 25 seconds later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I don't necessarily think they are.
But isn't that technically what you are inferring?

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 21 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I don't necessarily think they are.
> But isn't that technically what you are inferring?

Not at all, but why would you think they are insane? YOU said it, not me, why?

Hexi double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Met? No, but people used to believe in them, widely. That's completely besides the point though. If I'd listed EVERY superstition in the whole world, I would have been here writing the post for months.

The rest of what you said is a lie to defend your point. I've seen you ridicule beliefs many, many times in this forum.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Hexi triple-posted this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

You both also completely failed to even acknowledge the underlying philosophical problems I illustrated and instead, defended yourself, even though I didn't mention a single person in my post. You brought yourselves, by yourself, to the discussion.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ok, Hexi you can feel free and attempt to
over anaylze all you want. You know what I meant nothing deeper there.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

My point is this: I don't like it when people use their beliefs
to feel superior I.E. degrade mock ect..
I don't care who you are or WHAT your beliefs are.

That has nothing to do with me.. or bringing myself into it.
I also, disagree with accusing christians of attempting to shove their
beliefs down someones throat while you sit here and actively attempt
to change others' belief systems to resemble your own.

It's hypocritical. Fairly simple here.. no need to make it more complicated
than what it is.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 6 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

I don't disagree with your philosophy so I can't disagree with it. And I would respect someones belief in something. Whenever they are causing harm then, yes, I do say something. People building a shrine aren't harming anyone. If you're talking about my comments towards christianity, then yeah, I'm guilty of bashing sometimes because sometimes I hate them. And about tao, I have made it clear I don't care for it because I think the lack of taking responsibility causes more harm than any selfish good it creates for the believer.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
What? You're the one who analyzed what I said as saying people who believe in god are insane. Not ONCE did I say such a thing.

I didn't state beliefs, I presented a set of questions and philosophical dilemmas, which you completely ignored and started ranting about beliefs. You also replied within 7 minutes which makes it obvious you didn't consider a single thing I said at any depth and went straight to defending your position, which I never even addressed, why?

(Edited 57 seconds later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Yes, but Hexi has said he feels christianity does
harm people b/c extremists (those picketing christians)
permeate our entire network of society.

I can understand not wanting extreme idiotic "christians"
beliefs affecting our world.

But you can't presume we're all like that.
Not all of us are trying to tell people what to do or
believe.. or acting like we are better for it.

It goes back to what Jen was talking about earlier with the steriotyping.
No one listens to those people anyway.. the anti abortionists.. ect..
can women still have abortions????? Yes... a friend of mine just did 3 weeks ago.

So who gives a crap.. they really aren't affecting much. Look around you..
does it really appear to be a christian society in the western world??
Have you been to the United states recently?????

I don't meet many devout anything even in the small town I moved to last year.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> And about tao, I have made it clear I don't care for it because I think the lack of taking responsibility causes more harm than any selfish good it creates for the believer.

And how many Taoists have you met?

Do you begin to see what I was *actually* getting at?

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 second later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I'm not defending anything.. there was no point
in delving too deeply in what you said.
Because none of the stuff yo uwere talking
about had a single to do with my issue.

I am not defending shit. I am saying that atheists who attempt
to convince christians of atheism.. are no better than
the evangelicals they hate..

They are just sporting the opposing position..
it's a hypocrisy how are you not getting that?

Your words are not so complex that I need more than 7 minutes
to grasp them Hexi, seriously, come down off the high horse.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Yes, but Hexi has said he feels christianity does
> harm people b/c extremists (those picketing christians)
> permeate our entire network of society.
>
> I can understand not wanting extreme idiotic "christians"
> beliefs affecting our world.
>
> But you can't presume we're all like that.
> Not all of us are trying to tell people what to do or
> believe.. or acting like we are better for it.
>
> It goes back to what Jen was talking about earlier with the steriotyping.
> No one listens to those people anyway.. the anti abortionists.. ect..
> can women still have abortions????? Yes... a friend of mine just did 3 weeks ago.
>
> So who gives a crap.. they really aren't affecting much. Look around you..
> does it really appear to be a christian society in the western world??
> Have you been to the United states recently?????
>
> I don't meet many devout anything even in the small town I moved to last year.

I didn't claim anything even remotely what you're saying. Why would you say such things?

Hexi double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I'm not defending anything.. there was no point
> in delving too deeply in what you said.
> Because none of the stuff yo uwere talking
> about had a single to do with my issue.
>
> I am not defending shit. I am saying that atheists who attempt
> to convince christians of atheism.. are no better than
> the evangelicals they hate..
>
> They are just sporting the opposing position..
> it's a hypocrisy how are you not getting that?
>
> Your words are not so complex that I need more than 7 minutes
> to grasp them Hexi, seriously, come down off the high horse.

I never said anything related to what you're saying now either. Why would you say these thing?

Anonymous S joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 56 seconds later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Why are you so scared of "complex" words?
Hexi is acting completely rational, you are so confused, you are not even grasping what is happening in the conversation.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 14 seconds later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Jennifer, please, I implore you, look at what Mekay is posting. Look at it, then look at what I said in my post.

EvangelineMade joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Just want to point out that even in portions of the U.S. the religious right HAS for all intents and purposes outlawed abortion. (no, not literally). Mississippi (where I am originally from) has one abortion clinic in the whole state, and they're trying to shut that one down as well.

Of course, they also have one of the highest, if not the highest, rate of teen moms.

My husband remarked that it seems there's a church on every corner, and a liquor store between every two churches. I still love my home state, but you can hardly go five minutes without someone mentioning god and how he's done something wonderful or "allowed" something bad to happen.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Remember EM, religion doesn't affect your life at all if yo don't believe in it! REMEMBER THAT!

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 30 seconds later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You're obviously not reading what I'm writing.
(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yes you did. You said people and their religious beliefs
affect our entire society. I was paraphrasing.(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> The truth is that belief in a deity is the only superstition you are not allowed to ridicule. This is how religion affects EVERYONE.
>
> These are the reasons and rationalizations why I will never be quiet about the nonsense of religion. It infects our entire society regardless of your own beliefs.


If you're not trying to convince christians of atheism..
then why is it you're debating so hardcore..
and feel it is a "lost cause' what's your cause?

You really aren't pickin up what I'm layin down are ya?

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Wow. That's what I said.
I'm scared of "complex words"

I'll be taking your posts seriously from now
on for sure.

Mekay triple-posted this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
there isn't anything to grasp.
Let me spell it out.

I have two points. Two points only Mr. anon.

1. I don't like people thinking they are more superior
because of their religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs.
Referring to the mocking, sarcasm, and belittling.
like your "christians aren't intelligent or educated" comment earlier.
which was ludicrous.

2. I dislike it when atheists attempt to convert people who consider
themselves believers to atheism... or tell them they are wrong to death to
prove a point. It is no different than evangelicals pimping their beliefs.

That's it. Whatever else is being added or subtracted from that or to that
I could care less about. Why? because you can believe in what you want to believe in
without me needing to feel the need to try and make you feel like shit for having (those beliefs).

I could twist it around and be just as judgemental and say that parents who teach
their children atheism are whatever else are abusing their kids.

The point is there are different perspectives. It's what makes the world
go round. go with it.

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> there isn't anything to grasp.
> Let me spell it out.
>
> I have two points. Two points only Mr. anon.
>
> 1. I don't like people thinking they are more superior
> because of their religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs.
> Referring to the mocking, sarcasm, and belittling.
> like your "christians aren't intelligent or educated" comment earlier.
> which was ludicrous.

You immediately equated people who believe in elves as insane. That was your first reaction, NOT mine.

>
> 2. I dislike it when atheists attempt to convert people who consider
> themselves believers to atheism... or tell them they are wrong to death to
> prove a point. It is no different than evangelicals pimping their beliefs.
>
> That's it. Whatever else is being added or subtracted from that or to that
> I could care less about. Why? because you can believe in what you want to believe in
> without me needing to feel the need to try and make you feel like shit for having them.

I didn't tell anyone what to believe, nor did I make a single claim of anything. I asked a series of questions and presented philosophical dilemmas. What are you ranting about?

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Why is abortion the answer for the high teen mom pregnancy issue?
Why aren't condoms and birth control being used?

I don't personally agree with abortion.. but I don't judge people who have
them.. like I said a good friend of mine just had one.

My problem comes in when it is used as a form of birth control.
I am not saying ban abortion.. but if you're going t obring up the
high rate of teen moms... and correlate abortion as the answer for that.

I don't agree with that. Instead of "oh shit we need abortions to keep pregnancy rates down!"
why not... let's put some funding into education for not only the kids but parents.. on
birth control and condemns?

Ok I am using this as a distraction from Anatomy right now.
Hexi, there is nothing wrong with critical thinking and posing
dilemmas and inconsistencies in others' thinking.

That is good and healthy. It is the way it was done that was my issue.
I have listed my two issues more than once.

You keep accusing others of taking things personally.. when I see you are as well.

when I listed those two points I didn't even have you in mind.
but the anon who had blatant insults.. and the way the doc described christians as well..

I didn't even have you in mind. I was only curious about the one statement from you I asked about
earlier. Night ya'll.

(Edited 10 minutes later.)

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 11 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

If you re read all of the posts,you'll see that trading one belief for another is not in this entire thread.I understand your frustration with athiest shoving their beliefs down Christian believers throat. I find that just as insulting as well.but it's not even being discussed here,except when you say ite rude.
This thread is about just thinking,without just believing.Hexi's attempt in the Santa Claus,and other examples was trying to point that out.

If you just believe with out questioning,is that really the smartest road to take?

One question. I hear people say not every Christian believes all this stuff,and it's only the fruitcakes who take it to a dominating way of being. So the question is,what is a Christian?

Molly double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

The problem with outlawing abortion is attempting to control what a woman does with her body. It's her body. Also,whether people outlaw abortions or not,they will still happen. Just not in a clinic. I feel these woman who are getting abortions have just as much value as the unborn babies. I do not think someone should tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body. No matter what.

And the woman pays for it all.We aren't paying for their abortions.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 13 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Religion does affect your life even if you don't believe in it because you are being taught to hate and disregard religious people as lesser people as evidenced by this thread.

Sifter joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

>
> It goes back to what Jen was talking about earlier with the steriotyping.
> No one listens to those people anyway.. the anti abortionists.. ect..
> can women still have abortions????? Yes... a friend of mine just did 3 weeks ago.
>
> So who gives a crap.. they really aren't affecting much. Look around you..
> does it really appear to be a christian society in the western world??
> Have you been to the United states recently?????
>
> I don't meet many devout anything even in the small town I moved to last year.

It's simply not true that religious dogma doesn't affect much for people who are not religious. It's irrelevant whether or not you agree with abortion, Mekay, or teen sex, or homosexuality, or access to contraception, or women's right to drive or hold jobs or go out in public: the truth is that public policy in the US and in many, many countries in the world is continually shaped by pressure from religious groups. Notice that you said religion doesn't affect much, and then when EM pointed out that it affects abortion access in her state, you shifted the ground to whether abortion is okay or not. If believers kept their beliefs for themselves, it would not shape public policy. It does.

I live in a country where gay sex is illegal. Almost no one in government is either Christian or Muslim, but people get jailed for gay sex, because the pressure put on the government by Christian and Muslim groups is such that the government will not legalise it. How come those religious groups have so much power? Because the churches in this country, though relatively small at present, are part of huge international networks of churches with VERY active campaigns to convert, recruit, and TITHE their followers, so they have the funds to convert and recruit MORE followers to tithe internationally, AND to lobby world governments. This means that US churches have an active hand in forming policy such as the delightful Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality Bill, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill, which proposes the death penalty for gay sex.

Meanwhile in the US, gays are unable to get married in civil ceremonies and have full civil rights for their relationships, regardless of their religion, because of the same pressure groups. Again, it doesn't matter whether you think this is right or wrong, but don't kid yourself that religious belief is not affecting the lives of the non-religious.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Who has taught me, and how? Could you please point me to this evidence?

Hexi double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thank you Sifter. Finally someone else takes a fucking stand here against this ridiculous shit Mekay is shoveling.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 28 seconds later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hexi, you and Dr Robert are trying to teach others to hate religious people. Saying they are emotionally immature, not intelligent, etc

(Edited 58 seconds later.)

Jennifer double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Really, I don't even care about this topic anymore. I think all of you that think those kind of insulting remarks are ok because you said so also don't care how logical any debate against it are. Your put downs make it impossible for anyone who might be religious to talk openly about it let alone examine any possible bullshit they might believe. So much for open honesty around here... If I were religious I would be afraid to talk to any of you about it because I wouldn't want the insults and unacceptance.

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

I can only speak for myself, but for me it's the opposite.When the mind is not superstitiously afraid to just be,it becomes clearer to see we are all life. Completely equal in deserving respect and love.
Religion is being discussed. And what it causes for our brothers and sisters. Nothing seperates us except our beliefs! To me,this is what is being discussed.
But people only see what they want to see from this thread,and in life in general. We all have our own personalities and things get lost in translation,but i think this is the main point of the thread.

A persons religion is not the person. Person is perfect,beliefs are annoying and stupid.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 57 seconds later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thats great if you believe that and all but it has nothing to do with what I said.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 44 seconds later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Really, I don't even care about this topic anymore. I think you all that think those kind of insulting remarks are ok because you said so also don't care how logical any debate against it are.

This is completely incoherent. Also you stopped responding the moment you couldn't answer and instead said something completely irrelevant and unsubstantiated. I also asked you who taught me to hate religion and how, yet you didn't answer that either. Who have I insulted?

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 45 seconds later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I never said anyone taught you anything. I said you are teaching others. Did you read any of my threads?

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

Also, I have no objection in principle to anyone attending church, and I even think that occasionally church attendance can have a role in spiritual growth. But I very much hope that those who attend church get educated about the scope and connections of their church, exactly what public policy their church supports openly and covertly, and what they spend their money on. If you are giving money to your church it is hugely important that you research these things, but it's important even if you don't give money. Because if your church leaders oppose, say, the sale of alcohol, and they can also say they have five million followers, you can bet that the sale of alcohol is going to be a policy issue very soon.

And Mekay, given the upcoming election in your country I hope you will take the time before then to read up about the changes in legal access to abortion and contraception that have been happening in the US over the last few years. And find out about the parties' policies, and think about whether it's right for specific religions to determine the law for everyone.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 11 seconds later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I never said anyone taught you anything. I said you are teaching others. Did you read any of my threads?

What? I'm teaching? What the the fuck are you talking about! You're making completely random shit up here!

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 40 seconds later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

And personally, I'm getting annoyed with you all here because no one is listening to either person. It's all me me me. I'm right and you're wrong and I don't care what you say, you're wrong because I said so. Ugh It won't be long before someones argument is wrong because they made a typo.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> And personally, I'm getting annoyed with you all here because no one is listening to either person. It's all me me me. I'm right and you're wrong and I don't care what you say, you're wrong because I said so. Ugh

This coming from you who makes completely irrelevant statements up that have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING I've said even remotely and simply ignores half of what other people are saying without addressing it in ANY way?

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I answered all your questions. I said what I think. If you disagree than fine, disagree. I'm not making random shit up. That's just easier for you to say that than to actually have to think about anything I have said. That's on you too. Not my problem.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Who have I insulted?
How many Taoists have you met?
When did I say religious people are not intelligent? Not Robert, not anon x, y and z, but me.
Where did *I* claim a single thing in my original, long post?

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Religion does affect your life even if you don't believe in it because you are being taught to hate and disregard religious people as lesser people as evidenced by this thread.
Again, who taught me to hate religion, and how? You clearly state this and that you have evidence. Where is it? If you meant that "I'm" teaching it then how? By asking questions?

Furthermore, to take what Sifter said, if religion doesn't affect peoples lives, why can't homosexuals marry?

I'm not Robert, anon x, y or anyoone else for that matter. Why do you attribute it as "us". Have I said I agree with everything everyone else is saying? Have I said "This is what I believe as well"?

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Jen, I get where you're coming from, and I much prefer to talk about this without insults (or perceived insults) too. But I also see the perspective of wanting/needing to be very blunt about this, like a pin to a balloon. Because if you saw a bunch of your fellow villagers following the pied piper down the road and over the cliff, you would want to say WAKE UP as clearly as you could.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I've made an effort not to insult anyone, yet I'm apparently insulting everyone.

Psyche (OP) replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Wow, I'm almost sorry I brought this up... almost.

Then again, I should've known that this topic would cause a riot. I have to agree with the Doc, another thing I hate is getting accused of "bashing" someone for stating my opinion, just because I doesn't fit into their views.

Much like Doc's friend I have been raised by certain views that relatives have imposed on me and expected me to follow. The difference is that I can no longer see the value in some of the Biblical stories I have been taught. How can the someting as massive as the universe have been created in just seven days? Why is there no mention of dinosaurs in the bible? Why does the Bible constantly contradict itself? How could a man survive in the belly of a whale? How could a woman be turned into a pillar of salt? If God loves all his children, then why did he kill all but Noah and his family in a great flood? How is that "love?" How did Jesus turn water into wine? How did Jesus heal the blind? How did he bring the dead back to life?

These and more are questions have been plaguing me. I need a better answer than "just believe in it" or "Its the word of God."

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 24 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Religion does affect your life even if you don't believe in it because you are being taught to hate and disregard religious people as lesser people as evidenced by this thread.

You disliked my generalized tone towards the religious then you make a generalized assertion like that. I am an anti-theist (one actively opposed to theism) correct I feel contempt for the religious and if you grew up to realize that many religious hate and condemn you enough to desire to visit death upon you like I did perhaps you would as well. Religion effects everyone's lives because the religious push it on everyone around them the religious are the very same people who taught me to hate them. Demanding their beliefs be held sacred and granted respect then failing to grant the same to others and keep their beliefs to themselves... their belief may not be touched for it is "sacred" and off limits... You rationalized your arguments earlier asserting that Mosleems for instance do not have that practice. You may be right but no one directly targeted Mosleems I have Mosleem friends and that's precisely why I respect them they don't try and convert or preach to me. However make no mistake if my Mosleem friends were to be in congress and put forward a bill to put "In Allah We Trust" on the dollar I would feel just as much desire to slap them as the christian politicians who bothered with the waste of time to "confirm" the "In God We Trust"... BUT I don't see Mosleems asserting themselves in political fashions right now either... One may worship in one's church/temple/etc and home and believe as they so desire... but when one has the gall to press forward legislation on religious foundations such as the anti abortion crowd for instance then your religion is no longer deserving of any respect WHATSOEVER. There are many types of religious folk and sure most of them are fine and most of them support the others who are to varying degrees not fine folk. One can't sanctimoniously stand there and say "oh but I like gay people why are you attacking my beliefs not all Christians think that" while one's pastor takes half of the congregation to protest same sex marriage... the half that stayed behind doesn't justify it... Tell me how many religious you know who do not believe at least ONE of these things: abortion should be illegal, same sex marriage should not be legal, evolution isn't true or incomplete, creation OR intelligent design should be in science books, we need a death penalty, this nation is a christian nation, abstinence should be taught rather then safe sex, non Christians aren't as moral, global warming is a hoax or incomplete, we don't have to worry about global warming because of God's protection, I will be voting (candidate name) because they're Christian, contraception should be avoided, I'm not voting for (candidate) because they're (other religion)... This probably isn't a complete list and don't crucify me for using Christianity as my focus in America Christianity is the major religious grouping therefore they are the primary religion of which I have knowledge of... BUT after you go through that list think how many you know who don't hold one of those beliefs... They're likely to be a minority in Christian Americans... sure they are out there but they are the exception... not the rule... AND even then most of those who are the exception will likely come to the defense of the rest because the belief is sacred it must not be challenged...

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> And personally, I'm getting annoyed with you all here because no one is listening to either person. It's all me me me.

Welcome to reality that is natural. Making it you you you... would be the unnatural position... That's why if you want to convince someone you have the best chance of appealing to them personally why you must make people empathize with you. Whether you feel it or not.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Really, I don't even care about this topic anymore. I think all of you that think those kind of insulting remarks are ok because you said so also don't care how logical any debate against it are. Your put downs make it impossible for anyone who might be religious to talk openly about it let alone examine any possible bullshit they might believe. So much for open honesty around here... If I were religious I would be afraid to talk to any of you about it because I wouldn't want the insults and unacceptance.

Now if only I could make the religious say this in real life do you have any tips on that front? Because even if I behave in a most authoritarian and harsh manner I still have to deal with them. That's why I mostly give up in person towards the religious...

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Yes,especially since this is not about pussy footing to comfort someone.

Its all here though. I think Dr Robert spent half a day trying to convey how religion keeps people stuck in a childish mind,holding tight to their childish stories,to see every aspect on why this can potentially blunt a person's perspective on reality. So I am for sure stepping out of this thread.

That just goes to show ME..be careful what I have my children believe,because once beliefs stick,it may be there for the rest of their life.

Peace out!!!

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hexi, I think sometimes your calibration for what is an insult or not is a little... different. E.g. 'the ridiculous shit that Mekay is shovelling' (can't be bothered going further up the thread, but I don't recall that kind of thing from earlier on). To me that's clearly an insult. Maybe to you it's just a fact. Obviously I think some of what Mekay has said on this is inconsistent, whether because she hasn't thought about it very much, or hasn't expressed it the way she means, or doesn't have the same information I do, or because her religious convictions are emotional rather than intellectual, I have no idea. But to say she's shovelling ridiculous shit suggests she's either an idiot or has ill-intent, and that tends to derail conversation. Because once you say that to someone, they are in the position of having to defend their intelligence & intent, rather than think through and discuss their beliefs progressively. Their other option is to just wholesale give up their beliefs on the spot, and the human brain is just not wired to do that. It happens almost never. Much more likely they will just kill the conversation and hold their beliefs.

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 16 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Yes,especially since this is not about pussy footing to comfort someone.
>
> Its all here though. I think Dr Robert spent half a day trying to convey how religion keeps people stuck in a childish mind,holding tight to their childish stories,to see every aspect on why this can potentially blunt a person's perspective on reality. So I am for sure stepping out of this thread.
>
> That just goes to show ME..be careful what I have my children believe,because once beliefs stick,it may be there for the rest of their life.
>
> Peace out!!!

Also don't worry dear some manage to rend themselves free of childhood upbringing. Though depending on the person and how that happens it may not always be pretty. My own experience in that regard was one of those not so pretty and lets just say that basically the entirety of my teens was very gloomy and dark and self isolated... Though I guess it's to be expected when the foundation you rest the world on is torn down in a most unsanctimonious fashion... Just make sure you give them a solid objective foundation to stand on I guess...

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 36 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You are right of course, that came across overly rude but I could not believe what she was writing. I was genuinely baffled at her responses to what I actually said long before that remark.

The fact remains. Not once was anything I wrote in my long ass post addressed even remotely. How's that for respect and conversation?

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 18 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
This is fucking retarded. You have no idea what happened in my background regarding religion. My father is a HIGHLY religious man and I would literally be beat, kicked, slapped, thrown across the room and tortured for hours for even looking at him wrong. So you can't say if I had as dark a past as you I would be different. I hear that shit every other thread it seems like. I don't think any of you could even survive the shit I've been through so, please, try thinking before you speak.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 12 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
First you say:
> So you can't say if I had as dark a past as you I would be different.
Then you say:
> I don't think any of you could even survive the shit I've been through so, please, try thinking before you speak.

You also ignored my questions, again. Jennifer, take a step back, please.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yes, that is what I said. Why are you repeating it? What question?

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

I'll let you figure it out yourself. I don't wish to antagonize you further.

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> This is fucking retarded. You have no idea what happened in my background regarding religion. My father is a HIGHLY religious man and I would literally be beat, kicked, slapped, thrown across the room and tortured for hours for even looking at him wrong. So you can't say if I had as dark a past as you I would be different. I hear that shit every other thread it seems like. I don't think any of you could even survive the shit I've been through so, please, try thinking before you speak.

I am incapable of understanding you then. If I were you I would of killed that man. So yes I would survive... I'd kill to survive if I have to which is saying something since murder should always be a last resort... The pain one feels is relative... Your pain can't be quantified and compared to mine and vice versa... I'd say sorry but then I would only be lying cuz I'm not that you seem to assume I was somehow belittling your past... You assume your the only one around with a bad past? lets not get into the game of who had the worst upbringing I can tell you though I've had my fair share of parental abuses as well... or perhaps you would enjoy arguing the subtle nuanced differences in abuse of being forced to stand so long you collapse from exhaustion only to be made to get up and do it again no flinching allowed no food no water 110+ F degrees sometimes or 20F sometimes for the entire day maybe even night... just standing there absolutely still no matter how thirsty how tired how hungry you get... versus being tossed across a room... You personalize everything as though it's somehow an attack on you... How you could defend religions after your experience is absolutely out of my grasp... I know I would kill to survive because I ran away from home to keep myself from ending up in exactly the position where I'd have to do that... so... You want to call into question my survival instincts?... when that's the strongest thing I feel... while you talk about tolerating a position of absolute self deprecation and self destruction leading only to your potential death?... I was getting bored but when I phrase it like that your suddenly interesting... Because why and how anyone could do that is unfathomable to me... Point is we can do Tete-a-Tete until the day we die it would be a pointless waste of effort... Though again... if you went through that why you would be in defense of all that abuse rather then understanding my position is alien to me...

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
> The more educated a person is the higher the likeliness they will be atheist. The more educated and confident the atheist the more easily they may dismiss the religious. I'm still to terrified of Christian extremists to be capable of simply dismissing like the dear dr I go into full essay "why you suck" rants...


Um....why did you write this?

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 12 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> > The more educated a person is the higher the likeliness they will be atheist. The more educated and confident the atheist the more easily they may dismiss the religious. I'm still to terrified of Christian extremists to be capable of simply dismissing like the dear dr I go into full essay "why you suck" rants...
>
>
> Um....why did you write this?

Because it's true... and the person I was replying to expressed amazement at the Dr's statement... though I did incorrectly assert the doctor to be an atheist but the point I was making still stands... though if desired I suppose I could expound that when I say atheist I usually mean one who has a generalized opposition of any degree to organized religions and or their activities usually but not always in particular regard to their dealings with groups and or individuals outside of their own... If you don't find that satisfactory oh well...

decka joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Atheist vs Theist is a false dichotomy, as in this thread it's usually the religious who push it to try and get some sort of moral high ground over their critics.

Everyone could be described as an atheist to some extent - if you are Christian then you don't believe in Allah, Buddha, Krishna etc...

Only difference between you and the non-religious is one less belief.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 10 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ok, let me be more clear. Why did you write this....to ME?

And don't front like you don't care, you do or you wouldn't have felt the need to comment.

EvangelineMade replied with this 5.1 years ago, 34 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I agree abortion is not the answer. I should've mentioned that in many schools (including public ones) only abstinence is taught. There is no real sex education for a lot of kids there, even in 2012.

EvangelineMade double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
And this is a direct result of religious involvement - mostly Christian, because there is so little diversity.

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Ok, let me be more clear. Why did you write this....to ME?
>
> And don't front like you don't care, you do or you wouldn't have felt the need to comment.

Just checked... yep your the original person I was talking about who expressed amazement at the dr's stance (didn't really bother to look at your name was just replying to text)... I was fronting like I didn't care? How did I give that impression I gave a longer reply even then your question... if anything I was attempting to give the opposite impression...... Didn't know you disliked being spoken to I shall refrain from it if that's your desire... but is a reason necessary I do lots of pointless things... you expressed what appeared to be a state of amazement and I made a pointless gesture of friendly communication in your general direction because I felt like it...

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 54 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

The Roman Catholic Church’s remarkably concise statement of its core beliefs, the Credo, includes this pivotal article of faith that sustains and justifies most religions: “Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum et vitam venture seaculi”—“[I believe] and await the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.” Surely, life on Earth was truly miserable for nearly everybody until fairly recently. Through the ages the promise of comfort and immortality after earthly demise has been a powerful incentive for religious adhesion. In fact, failure to belong in toto to the Church, for example, was harshly punished by the ecclesiastical Roman Inquisition tribunal (1542–1908), which dealt out severe questioning that included torture to coerce the victim to recant and return to the fold. Those judged guilty of heresy incurred harsh penalties including death by fire.
worn-down-looking old church

There remain in the world today several other orthodoxies, led by religious fanatics, that torture and kill in the name of religion. Some of them use animal and human sacrificial rituals. On the other hand, to have one’s virtual ticket to heaven punched one must pay for the privilege granted religion by exacting a number of conditions in return. They include strict adherence to specific rules of conduct and financial sacrifices by the willing believer. By contrast, the wicked (comprising those born or raised outside the faith, unbelievers, nonbelievers, cheats, murderers, thieves, and the like) are likely to be condemned to eternal damnation, which usually involves a hellish existence in some underground sea of eternal flames ruled by the Devil. The miscreant’s fall from grace, however, need not be fatal if he or she recants the behavior in time. He or she may yet be pardoned by taking on burdensome obligations for the remission of sins. This is how religions have dominated mankind since time immemorial. They offer a collective vision of a benevolent eternity for the price of remaining an integral, potent part of human society. But today, life on Earth is more rapidly becoming gratifying while the possibility for a supernatural life after death is becoming increasingly problematic and distant.

The cornerstone of almost all established religions rests on ancient texts claimed to have been divinely inspired, although an argument can be made that all of them qualify as heavenly hearsay. Many have been translated into the common spoken and written language. They include the Septuagint, an early translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek. Then there is the Complutensian Polyglot, the Old and New Testament of the King James Bible rendered in quintessential English, the Ramayana, the Bhagavad Gita as part of the Mahabarata, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, the Koran and the Hadith, the Torah and the wisdoms of the Midrash with the Babylonian and the Jerusalem Talmuds. These texts are usually grounded on a set of archaic dogmas, implausible beliefs, and fallacious precepts, such as the golden tablets as one of the divine sources for the Book of Mormon.

These texts inevitably clash against the coherent, rational, scientific advances that increasingly overwhelm religious histories, dictates, and dogmas. In all seriousness, some advanced religions still dispense such improbable yarns as a naked Eve in the Garden of Eden speaking with a snake. They allege the immaculate conception of Jesus by Mary through the intervention of the Holy Ghost. They assert that the Red Sea parted to allow Jews dry passage from Egypt to the Holy Land. More generally, these religions have been generating miraculous happenstances for which reliable evidence is never likely to be found.

For the rational person, it is increasingly difficult to accept these religious tenets. Indeed, to belong to most religions one must suspend wholesale monumental disbeliefs of the modern world and instead accept supernatural magical explanations. With scientific advances expanding the human view of the universe, it is understandable why so few major religions have emerged in the past thousand years. Given these wide-ranging impediments, it is not surprising that religions in almost all their forms are neither willing to deal with the modern world nor capable of doing so. This explains, in part, why the attendance at churches, synagogues, and mosques for religious events is slowly but palpably decreasing. Religions over the longer term seem doomed to eventual irrelevance. They appear to be well on the way to eventually turning into mere historical curiosities, but that will not happen effortlessly or soon because religions still carry considerable sway in the world.

Among the active religions of today, Judaism is one of the oldest and is conspicuous for its remarkable survival in the face of brutal existential assaults. Judaism covers a gamut of conflicting factions, many of which are based on fierce resistance to change. The scholars of old wrote many religious texts by borrowing liberally from other mythological traditions. For example, the four-thousand-year-old Babylonian Epic of Gamesh originated the story of a heavily animal-laden ark enduring a torrential rainfall and then ending up stuck on a mountain top. The Roman Catholic Church was eventually divided as a result of the sixteenth-century Reformation into Protestant denominations, which in turn were still further divided. Islam emerged from the dictates of the prophet Muhammad, who preached an uncompromising form of monotheism in the seventh century. Although there is a theoretical Islamic underpinning of belonging to a single community, Islam also fragmented early into a number of sects, some of which continue to fight each other in a murderous frenzy to this day. Hinduism emerged from bloody sacrificial cults brought in by Arian invaders in India around 1500 BCE. Buddhism began as a revolt in the sixth century BCE against orthodox Hinduism through the influence of Siddhartha Gautama, universally known as Buddha. Confucius in China did not preach the existence of a deity but of a mandatory system of good conduct that he introduced 2,500 years ago. Jainism was also introduced in the sixth century BCE, as yet another religion that taught nonviolence in revolt against Hinduism. Shinto in Japan was once a sect with reverence for Kami, a polytheist sacred power that eventually became distorted in order to sustain the brutal militarism of the 1930s and early 1940s—but its origins are lost in the early folklore of the country.

The central conclusion about religion has to be that it has not made any lasting impact on human ethics, the primary engine for its existence. In this respect alone, religion has failed dismally, as the world remains today at the uneasy threshold of a worldwide nuclear threat, looking helplessly at the hecatomb that was the twentieth century.

The single most significant element discrediting religion is the inexorably growing impact of science. That process began in earnest in sixteenth-century Europe and received a dramatic boost that had far-reaching implications not only for science but for the Roman Catholic Church as well. It was Copernicus (1473–1543) who mathematically dethroned Earth as the center of the Ptolemaic universe and postulated a heliostatic solar system, degrading the Earth to a much lesser position in the firmament. His work was confirmed by Galileo (1564–1642), who not only experimentally confirmed and supported the heliocentric theory developed by Copernicus but is actually considered the pioneer of the experimental method. This did not sit well with the Roman Catholic Church of the time, and stern opposition to Galileo’s heliocentric system by the Church did not fully end until 1922. Now the Church has issued restrictions to human reproduction and stem cell research. Many other religions also have concerns about where scientific research is going and the risk it is posing to their beliefs. In the long run these restrictions are not likely to be effective. There can be no doubt that science will eventually triumph.

What makes the advance of scientific work possible is that there is an easy and fruitful give and take between science and technology; neither of these can possibly have an intrinsic fruitful relationship with religion. There is a major difference between science and technology: science is a way of thinking while technology is a way of doing. Technology provides no clear contribution to the eventual doom of religion because it dwells on an entirely different logical platform from science. That difference between them is important. Technology is an altogether distinct concept from science, although these two terms are almost always used interchangeably and indiscriminately. The extraordinary example is China, which was a veritable fountainhead of major technological inventions. These included the compass in the third century BCE and the development of medicine—the use of the pulse for diagnosis was recorded in the remarkable Book of Titles, dating back to the eleventh century BCE. Gunpowder was first used for fireworks in the second century BCE; writing paper was available from 105 CE onward, and printing with movable type was developed in the seventh century CE.

These were truly remarkable technological fruits of the human mind that Europeans didn’t recognize and adopt until much later. Not surprisingly, there is no whiff of religious chicanery in them because religion is blinded by “having the word” that transcends scientific thoughts and technological pursuits, intentionally resisting change to protect its wobbly edifice of dogma. This is what makes every attempt to reconcile religion with science and/or technology a virtually unattainable goal.

One of my sometime mentors was paleontologist and Jesuit priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881–1955). We encountered each other in France, where I lived, and later on in New York, where he died. He tried but failed to convince me to consider a Jesuit framework for my life, but I learned the catechism in the interim and sang until fairly recently exquisite masses and requiems by a variety of composers—from Gregorian chants and early music to contemporaries—in a number of churches and secular venues. Much of that music is awesomely beautiful in the main, but it neither subverted me nor provided me with a coherent convergence between religion, science, and technology, just as Pierre was unable to do so. This discouragingly futile effort to achieve consistency between science and religion is broadly ongoing today. A dominant factor is individuals’ repeated but failed attempts to seek at least a rational link between religion and ethics. Ethics is a major factor in science but plays no discernible role in technology. Ethics consists of wise guides for human behavior that are vitally important to civilizing pursuits. They ensure the survival and prosperity of the human society. By contrast, religious precepts and prohibitions usually impose a hostile burden on outsiders and infidels who reject adherence to traditional and ancient norms, most of which long ago reached obsolescence.

It was Voltaire (1694–1778) who exclaimed in disgust as he left one of many interminable religious disputations of his time, “There are no sects in geometry!” By contrast, here is one shining example among many that illuminates how science and technology complement each other to advance both: In 1928 Karl Jansky, a newly minted MIT graduate engineer, was hired by the then-prestigious Bell Telephone Laboratories. He was assigned the difficult task of tracking down all sources of noise that interfered with telephone communications. By 1931 Jansky had systematically detected and identified all sources of telephonic noise, with one glaring exception. It took him many additional months to finally pinpoint that finicky last source of noisy interference. It originates in deep space from the direction of Sagittarius, located at the center of our own galaxy. Although Jansky published the results of his seminal work, he perplexingly didn’t follow through on it but went on to do other things. It fell to an amateur astronomer, Grote Beber, to pursue this spatial mystery further; thus was born the science of radio astronomy, emerging as it did from technology rather than from science. Such fortuities are the bread and butter of science and technology, where no quarter is ever taken or given to claims that are beyond the realm of rational inquiry.

The one central position that distinguishes science and technology from religion is the tradition of unrelenting attempts to falsify the observations before they are accepted by the community of scientists and engineers, a demanding standard that religion could never accomplish or even consider. Religion is incapable of granting believers the thought that there may perhaps be errors in its tenets that might contradict any part of the platform on which they stand.

Nonetheless, religion has to rationalize its usually convoluted dogmas by giving them ethical dimensions—as already noted, an ultimately futile exercise. For example, the “Right to Life” has long been a dead letter in the Roman Catholic Church. Even Vatican scholars of the Scriptures no longer uphold the erroneous reading of Genesis 38:9. Among the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not kill” does not even begin to encompass all human life- forms, and the human construct is open to wide interpretation; consider the resulting dogma that “life begins at conception.” That is an utterly false assertion on its face because spermatozoa and ova cells are vibrantly alive long before they meet. Life most assuredly does not begin at conception. There are no discontinuities here as life just persists and inexorably continues and matures. Thus the inevitable conclusion embraced by religion is that the sacred status of an individual and his society is dependent on properties possessed by human cellular tissues.

This has a startling consequence that is rarely if ever invoked by religion. Indeed, if all forms of human life were truly recognized as sacred down to the unicellular form, religious authorities would be compelled to insist on the ceremonial burial of every human cell, every strand of hair, every bit of skin, and every tissue removed from surgery. From the formal religious assertion of the sublime value of a single fertilized human cell, we are, alas, left with a preposterous notion that is not enforceable in the real world. Sooner rather than later these concepts will determine at some point in the future that all human life is sacred in fact as it is in theory. The quoted Roman Catholic Credo dogma that begins this essay is based on the proposition that life on Earth is assumed to be unlikely to improve and will remain irretrievably miserable. Only in life after death can one be granted perpetual solace in one of several forms. This precept has no place in science or technology, but it still finds a declining refuge in religion. The ultimate contradiction is the pro-lifer who supports the death penalty. H.L. Mencken witheringly summarized how science could overcome the limitations of theology and autocracy: “Every time the scientists take another fort from the theologians and the politicians there is genuine human progress.”

© Copyright 2012 by Elie A. Shneour. — All rights reserved.
Elie A. Shneour

Elie A. Shneour, a neurochemist and biophysicist, is president and research director of Biosystems Research Institute in La Jolla, California, and a longtime Committee for Skeptical Inquiry fellow. He has served on many national and international science advisory bodies and is a member of the American Chemical Society, the American Society of Biological Chemists, the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, the International Society for Neurochemistry, Sigma Xi, and several other scientific organizations.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
*sigh* I wrote that because someone always says something like that to me without having a clue as to what my past actually is. I don't compare pain, but it gets annoying when people assume I've had this blissful life. And, yeah, that is personal to me so I take it personally. I say I don't think anyone could survive it because that is what I honestly feel. It doesn't make me better or worse. I'm just saying what I think. The reason I can still defend religion is because I examined it myself, looked at many religions and beliefs and found positive things in many of them and because my dad, while saying he was a christian, didn't grasp what the bible actually taught. It wasn't the religion at fault but him and those like him.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Use Ailonna if you are addressing me, please. I have a hard enough time understanding the meanings in things people are saying as it is, and it is even more confusing when you comment out of no where and it is completely unrelated to my aforementioned comment(s). Who cares if you don't recognize any of this other than text, I get you there, but for reading comprehension purposes, you should let me know you are talking to me. The way you went about it seemed like a jab at the Doc's comment while not addressing him specifically. If that was the case, address him, not me.

And my comment, it was me being playful, a.k.a. joke, not serious.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 9 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

I have just reread this thread. All of you who imagine that I am "bashing religion" or that I am an atheist are completely mistaken. I bashed nothing. I simply offered my understanding of these matters.

I am not particularly down on religious belief per se, but on ALL belief, religious or otherwise, which cannot be substantiated personally on good evidence. Some of you who cling to your childhood indoctrination, or use "God" as if religion were valium, simply imagine that I am "bashing" your cherished beliefs. If I were speaking about politics or some other controversial topic, you would never use the word "bash." (the first link below has a great cartoon on this very subject, I believe).

What some people call "faith," I call credulity--which means believing in something simply because some so-called authority (parents, priest, holy book, etc.) claims that it is "truth." As long as a human being keeps clinging to that kind of "faith," which is really a failure to think for oneself with an open mind, that person never reaches full adulthood no matter how old, but remains childish, emotionally and intellectually. This should be obvious.

If you really are interested in these matters and want to try to look more deeply into them (some of you really do not seem to be interested in much except debate, oneupmanship, feeling offended, and defending yourself), here are some questions which were presented to me about religion, along with my replies. If you take the time to read them, and then want to open a new thread with some actual intelligence and desire to learn in it, I would like to see that. Otherwise, all of this chit-chat is, from my perspective, just a waste of my time.

http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/christianparents.html

http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/masturbatingchristian.html

http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/religiousguilt.html

http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/christianparents.html

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/church%20problem.html

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/church%20problem.html

http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/purity.html

(Edited 12 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 16 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yeah, I know. You've already made it clear that everyone besides Hexi is an idiot.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

No, Jennifer, you are ACTING like an idiot. Anyone using the slightest bit of intelligence would have understood what I just wrote. I gave it my best shot yesterday, including replying to your questions respectfully. You, on the other hand, misquoted me and accused me. Even after that foolishness, when you asked me for an example, I gave you one. You seemed to get it, but then later went back to your silly little rant. You persist in taking things personally, so until you can stop defending yourself I am done replying to anything you write.

(Edited 32 seconds later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 17 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I never misquoted you. I copy/pasted every quote I made that you said. MY silly little rant? I'm not having a hissy fit over religion. I only stood up for the people you kept insulting. And besides, I wasn't even talking about what you imagine everyones motives and reactions are.. I'm talking about this: "Hexi, it is true, sometimes goes a bit too far, but is by no means trolling, and brings an intelligence to the discussions which they would otherwise lack." But, thanks for clarifying that you think I'm acting like an idiot and you're not going to bother listening to me. It saves me time in writing. I do wish you would say that shit BEFORE I actually try to talk to you. I guess I should have figured out that you were deaf to reason when you told me to go say my prayers. And until YOU stop defending yourself I won't listen to you either. I mean, really! Who knocks an article in the times because it was about many scientists and not about nobel prize winners? Give me a freakin break! So, by all means, take your ratty ball and go home. No one wanted to play with you anyway.

(Edited 46 minutes later.)

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 20 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> *sigh* I wrote that because someone always says something like that to me without having a clue as to what my past actually is. I don't compare pain, but it gets annoying when people assume I've had this blissful life. And, yeah, that is personal to me so I take it personally. I say I don't think anyone could survive it because that is what I honestly feel. It doesn't make me better or worse. I'm just saying what I think. The reason I can still defend religion is because I examined it myself, looked at many religions and beliefs and found positive things in many of them and because my dad, while saying he was a christian, didn't grasp what the bible actually taught. It wasn't the religion at fault but him and those like him.

Well don't take me personally I rarely mean anything personally I am capable of mustering very little ill intent especially for any one individual persons... that would require far more forethought then I usually put forward on most things and about the only thing I believe I put so much thought as that in is garden planning... I don't assume people live in bliss ever though... I will normally assume that most people don't understand what it is like to be hated by people who sometimes seriously have intent to kill you since most people wouldn't... and it's normally a safe assumption to make which was the assumption I made... I was talking about the fear aspect of it as well not necessarily the pain... The fear that these people your meeting may want to do you harm or even kill you for something your incapable of changing and hoping they never know... Now with the religions themselves surely there are some faiths that sound good or harmless on paper and even those which are in practice as well... a friend of mine had a saying about religion though "communism sounds great... on paper"... in practice people do horrible things with it... words aren't religion... what the people do with those words is the religion... There are good people and bad people in all groups... but lots of bad people will gravitate towards religion because it makes a good tool for making excuses... I hate to use Hitler as an example but he fits... no one would question he was a bad man... However he justified his wars using religion... You may say that he wasn't being a Christian and you may be right... but commandeer a time machine go back to Nazi Germany and tell that to one of the people then that they were being bad Christians... it was a case of Christian extremist zealotry mingled with nationalism... while the core Dogma of any belief may be spotless... the ideology and belief system of the adherents will not be so pure... each person's individual ideology and belief system is indeed a part of their religion... To complicate things we know there will be different ideology and belief systems by person... by pastor... by various differing faith branch... by region... nation... and even political influence goes into the mix at times... I believe that the majority of the human race are altruistic at their core and that most of these people indeed do not have any ill intents in their beliefs... but you may do horrible things on a good intention... The nuclear bomb was made by scientists who had good intentions... it doesn't alter the reality that in practice religion can easily become a toxic thing... If I lived in the deep south where my ex lives I'd get out even less because the south is filled even more so with well intentioned good Christian men in a societal region where beating me to the point of near death would be considered even more acceptable... NOW we could obviously elaborate and explain we are highly opposed to violent/repressive religious ideologies, belief systems, and societal influence mixtures and persons who would hide behind such things as justification for their negative actions... But that takes to long and most of us aren't going to think about all of that so the shorthand will stand... religion... or religious... etc... ADDITIONALLY even a "good" religion may have vast negative impacts on individuals... I was raised a seventh day adventist since my birth I was taught God was a being of pure love... and loved everyone etc yada yada nothing objectionable... Now I lived in a family that is incredibly neglectful and abusive as we covered so here is this perfect figure to save me and all that... now imagine the world ending shock I felt when I began to sexually mature as a teen I realize I'm homosexual...... and I am told and hear all these "Christians" talking about how the entity I was taught was a being of pure love hated me... imagine the tortured hours I spent at night praying for messages, signs, consolation never to receive it begging for even the slightest hint... eventually giving up laying there begging to the sky to die... would it be any surprise how much I contemplated suicide and murder given those circumstances eventually culminating in my flight from my home... Even still that "innocent" belief I held has left a nihilistic self defeating existentialist splinter inside my head that still occasionally rears its ugly self that I must vanquish on a monthly sometimes twice monthly basis... in addition to any time I manage to let myself become depressed... or think in depth on philosophy... Would it be a surprise knowing those things to see my recoil in disgust when I hear songs of praise either?... would it be terribly perplexing to see me staring out the window in great consternation come Christmas time?... Would it absurd when I see a religious person with a child that you notice my eyes narrow in abject disgust?... I'm sure the dr has seen this destruction before... though perhaps not a case exactly like to mine... it isn't hard to find cases like me you just have to look...... SO... yes I am very negative towards the religious... Do I think about it or purposely have any ill intent towards any of them personally? nope... Am I rational when I do that?... hell no I'm in survival mode with immense disdain and disgust mingled in... ALSO don't take offense when someone tells you your acting like an idiot... I know I act like an idiot if you put a zealot in my presence... Am I always an idiot? I prefer to think I am not... though I am told I am an immense asshole usually rather then idiot... though the huge amount of knowledge in the known universe is still a vast ocean compared to what I personally possess being more like unto a puddle... Let alone that which is yet undiscovered...

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Hi, Anon H--

Yes, I have heard numerous stories like yours, particularly from gay people who find themselves despised and even hated by previous friends and relatives when they come out, and from children in religious families who were punished and threatened just for expressing normal childhood doubts and questions about the adult bullshit they were hearing. This is just one of the nasty aspects of human beings inventing "God," and then having the absolute gall to say that they know what "God" wants because "God's word" is written down in their silly little holy books. There are dozens of holy books, all different, over which various religions fight and kill one another. Even within the same religion, they fight and kill over which translation of the supposed inerrant text is the "true" one.

This thread is filled with strange reactions to my saying to the OP that she should tell her family not to force their beliefs down her throat. Sudden, Dr. Robert is "bashing" religion. No, I am not bashing it. It does that very well for itself. Very well.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 11 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

My ego is hurt because no one actually addressed my post that I put effort into. :(

They just got offended, for no reason that I can see.

(Edited 29 seconds later.)

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
It was a good post, Hexi. I nodded in agreement, you just couldn't see it. The Santa part was especially lucid.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

I personally have no idea what is going on with this while thread and have been ignoring it for the most part. The only thing I saw and liked was the comment I quoted, and some super long post about santy claus. I'm sure whatever happened after that created the same few people to interpret it all wrong and get offended somehow.

Hexi, you love it, god damn. How do you have the patience to debate this topic EVERY-SINGLE-TIME.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thanks. It's not even about agreeing with it, but rather that people even read it and understood it. I had a close look at exactly why I think the way I do.

Hexi double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ail, everyone should have the energy. As Sifter so aptly pointed out, it affects everyone, no matter where you live. When policy stops being affected by pressure from religious groups I'll stop caring. Especially since the US policy is so affected by it. If you don't think that what happens in the US matters to you, personally, no matter where you live then you are oblivious. And I don't mean to insult anyone with that, just pointing a fact.

Even in Finland where the only sign of religion you'll ever see unless you go look for it is churches, we still have a party in our government called "The christian democrats" and that pisses me off.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 22 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Hexi,

The santa bit IS my life.The exact same thing has happened with me...to a T!

And point 3 is my world as well. My religious family/friends have no problem making fun of Scientology,Mormon beliefs,cults...but as soon as some one questions their beliefs,they put up a guard,never connecting the pieces to the thinking puzzle,that they are in their own fantasies. It's incredible the need to believe out ways common sense every time.

So your post can't be debated. How can you debate common sense?

(Edited 53 seconds later.)

Anonymous H replied with this 5.1 years ago, 27 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> My ego is hurt because no one actually addressed my post that I put effort into. :(
>
> They just got offended, for no reason that I can see.

I can only concentrate on 1 person at a time or I would of read your post... I think I saw it and meant to read it in detail I just failed at getting back to that don't feel hurt deary.(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Ail, everyone should have the energy. As Sifter so aptly pointed out, it affects everyone, no matter where you live. When policy stops being affected by pressure from religious groups I'll stop caring. Especially since the US policy is so affected by it. If you don't think that what happens in the US matters to you, personally, no matter where you live then you are oblivious. And I don't mean to insult anyone with that, just pointing a fact.
>
> Even in Finland where the only sign of religion you'll ever see unless you go look for it is churches, we still have a party in our government called "The christian democrats" and that pisses me off.

Aye it's disturbing to me that one of our major political parties in the US may as well be the religion and church party... They're disturbingly nationalistic to and they think that is a good thing at that... I'm only in favor of authoritarian style government if I'm the head of that government and that obviously isn't happening...

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Everyone should, but not everyone does. I think it is easier for you to have the energy because of where you live Hexi. It isn't constantly thrown in your face the way it is here. The US claims to separate religion from state, but they don't. The hypocrisy of it all is at times overwhelming. What you write here is what I am constantly preaching on about whenever I see anything remotely religious and/or ignorant, and I have been arrested and harassed for things like this. I still keep informing people in a somewhat reasonable manner (not going to lie, I do get heated at times, plus I like opening their doors to reality), but to do with this with every aspect of my life, I can't. I get too annoyed by the people and their ways of thinking. I'd rather not concentrate on my fury because I lash out and as a form of self control I figured it's best for me not to get involved in every aspect of my life.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

For the record, I thought the whole penis joke was a little harsh but I didn't consider it bashing. I considered the insults directed at religious people to be bashing. You want to knock the beliefs, whatever. Why knock the people? That's more childish than what you accuse them of.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 27 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Jennifer-- I have insulted no one here and I never do. I have never knocked any person here (in my recollection) and certainly did not do that yesterday. You are dreaming all of this, just as you dreamed up a bunch of words I never said yesterday. Saying that I condsider religious belief to be childish is not knocking any person, it is a direct comment on when and how those beliefs are poured into young brains, and how they stay there while ordinarily intelligent people continue to believe in all that nonsense. If you will snap out of your fantasy world and reread the thread, you will not see anywhere in which I insulted any person.

Naturally, if you think that calling your beliefs into question is an insult, then almost anything that anyone says can be taken as an insult, and I guess that is what you do. That's why conversing with you usually ends up like this. You feel "insulted." For me, it was just a conversation.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 25 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Again, I did not misquote anything you said. I copy/pasted everything when I was quoting you. How can I misquote you when I copy/paste? Yes, you insulted people. Deny it if you want but its there in black and white. Yes, calling religious people childish is an insult when you only base that so called childishness on something you don't even know is true or not or even if some portion is true or not. (You just have your beliefs.) I know you can't possibly be so stupid that you believe it's not. I know if I called you childish and your little facebook page foolish bullshit you would be offended and kick me out. (I've seen you do it for a lot less.) Mocking a persons beliefs is insulting to the person as well, and you did plenty of that. Please keep in mind that I am not even talking about my own personal beliefs here. This has nothing whatsoever to do with me or anything I believe so you're barking up the wrong tree there and perhaps you should snap out of your own little fantasy.

(Edited 55 minutes later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
It's pretty consistent. I have stated what my two issues
were over and over and over.

Give me a break.
the whole reason I commented b/c I was agreeing with what Jen had to say.
There was nothing more to it.. again with adding..

two reasons. two issues. I can say this another thousand times and
it still wouldn't get through.

and I am half assed responding that's why. It is not worth all my
time and energy. I pointed out two issues.. if repeating them over
and over isn't consistent to you.. don't know what ta tell ya.

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I live here. Abortion is ALWAYS a debate
every election. Nothing new.

Mekay triple-posted this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You're right. But I listed my two issues..
that didn't have anything to do with the political
crap this entire discussion swerved into.

One more time:

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)


>
> I just have a problem when people feel superior
> because of their beliefs.
>
> I don't know care if you're christian or atheist.

This ENTIRE issue started when Jen pointed out the
superiority complex.. I am not going to take time to quote all the insults again.

But, it is pretty clear that there a few atheists here or self proclaimed "non atheists"
who believe all christians are idiots, immature, ect... b/c of their different beliefs.

It is no different than whites saying blacks are ugly b/c of their kinky hair.
It is simply not true that all christians are uneducated idiots as I have seen
passed around this thread over and over.

That was my only problem.. but instead of focusing on that, originally, it
seems it is much easier to go into politics.. and other issues ect..
instead of what was originally pointed out.

Anyone can view Jen's original comments to understand that he rest of
this has been a distraction from the original issue.

I wasn't offended by your santa claus post Hexi .. not even in the slightest..
it just had nothing to do with what my issue was.

I have said this so many times.. I am literally typing this as fast as possible.
totally done with this thread though.. debate away peoples.

Nothing gets through. Other than the insults.. I want to say as well..
I added on to Jen's point.

When athiests try to convert christians into atheists it is hypocritical.
It is no different than a Christians evangelism. Last time..
those were my two issues

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 11 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I love the correlation between people
> who are literally insane and people who believe in God.
> Totally comparable.

This was your first post after what I posted, which I then, without insults, explained that it was not my intent and asked you why would you think such a thing, at which point you started ranting at me about something which had nothing to do with what I said. So why say now that you didn't?

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I am not defending shit. I am saying that atheists who attempt
> to convince christians of atheism.. are no better than
> the evangelicals they hate..
>
> They are just sporting the opposing position..
> it's a hypocrisy how are you not getting that?


OK. Here is one of your points. I agree with you,yet you choose to unfriend me. Why?

If you get past all the religious parts of Christianity,you might just see Jesus was trying point out a TRUE spiritual path. IF you are capable of detouring around allll the dogmatic crap written in the bible,through childish...and some,cruel stories,you can still see beautiful messages from Jesus,who seemed like a wonderful,kind man. (IF it wasn't just a story of a Jesus to begin with,mind you.)

There is nothing wrong with having faith.FYI.Learn what the meaning of having blind faith means. Faith in beliefs is entirely different. It can even lead to being in complete contradiction with your heart(as Hexi was trying to point out).

Hi find it almost laughable that your Christian heart shut me out. hahahaha!!!!

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hexi I have said what my issues are.
I'm not going to repeat again.

I presumed you were inferring something you weren't
nothing more to it.. yet you continue to focus on that particular
response. It's like you think you came across a hidden proof like you "caught" me in something.
I just misunderstood what you were getting it. You already corrected me.
So time to move on.

Yup... last I checked still have the same issues.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Molly this is going to bother you until the end of time isn't it?

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

> Hi find it almost laughable that your Christian heart shut me out. hahahaha!!!!

This is the core of why I have unfriended you Molly.
You can say you are non judgemental.. but you have the same
cheap insults as everyone else.

This thread has nothing to do with FB drama.
Also.. your issue isn't that I have deleted you from
FB it's your rejection issues that have nothing to do with me.
We never even chatted on FB other than a few posts on each others walls.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 15 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Get over your self mekay.lol

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 15 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I too always find it laughable when someone is hurt enough to stop talking to me. Remind me never to speak about my own personal beliefs with any of you. I don't want to be insulted, laughed at, and mocked.

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Learn what it means to have a Christian heart,then you might see the humor in it as well.

Molly double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

I am human.It hurts mekay dropped me so easily all for expressing my own thing. I find it sad that I cant be open,but it can be all about her all the time.As soon as I say one thing that doesnt fit in with HER life..I get shoved out. Its fine,but it did hurt.Sorry I have feelings as well.

Apart of me laughs because its better then being hurt...but the other part really is funny,since its the opposite of acceptance(AKA) a christian,NON dogmatic,heart.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 32 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hows this for a christian heart

You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
do you see what you're doing here?
You are using this thread to attack me
and vent out your frustration of FB.

There is nothing to "get over"
It's annoying I can't even post here without you bringing it up
and attempting to argue with me.

I am asking you to please stop.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thanks.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 54 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Well excuse me for being curious and asking you a sincere question. Will never happen again, I promise.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 43 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
That doesn't give yo ua right ot personally attack me on this thread.
It hurt being told I was abusing my daughter.

Stop making it all about you.
What is done is done. And you attacking me only validates my decision.
Please leave me alone.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 37 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I got your back girl.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 32 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
hexi.. but I did answer.. Ihonestly think you are
attempting to be non insulting and it is nice to see.

Seriously.

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

I do not like to argue,so I know 100% this is all coming from you.I make sure to express my feeling,even though they arent always the best for others,ALL for the reason I dont ever want to argue or hate someone.

So we are done.Agreed.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Molly double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Want to state to everyone,I never once said you abuse your daughter. Not once. Not only that..I have told you at least 2 times what an amazing mom you are.


My experience,life,what I see,is that dogmatic religion,chains people to believe instead of think,IS abusive. You took that personal.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Molly coming from me???? I haven't even addressed you ONCE.
You brought the attacking crap "mocking" as Jen pointed out
"christian heart" joke. And FB.

What world do you live in?

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> It's pretty consistent. I have stated what my two issues
> were over and over and over.
>
> Give me a break.
> the whole reason I commented b/c I was agreeing with what Jen had to say.
> There was nothing more to it.. again with adding..
>
> two reasons. two issues. I can say this another thousand times and
> it still wouldn't get through.
>
> and I am half assed responding that's why. It is not worth all my
> time and energy. I pointed out two issues.. if repeating them over
> and over isn't consistent to you.. don't know what ta tell ya.

I was responding to this. I was TRYING to show you that I keep TRYING to show you I AGREE!! But you think I am attacking you. Yes you addressed it to hexi,but this is a public conversation.

And you keep telling me to stop contacting you.You have no desire to hear me. So we are done. Ive havent had someone be so mean to me since I was in the dating world,dating all kind of mean guys.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
It might have seemed that I was trying to "get" you but I was genuinely interested to hear why you think the examples I gave were of insane people. Like, what's the criteria because I wanted to see you say it.

I said elves and aliens on purpose and here is why:

There have been DMT studies done on people and many of the reported visions are similar to those that claim to have been abducted by aliens. Elves are also quite common. Now, what does that have to do with anything? I'll tell you!

DMT, the most powerful psychedelic known to man is actually generated in the human brain naturally. We have no idea why but it's been suggested to have something to do with dreams (makes sense). However, no one knows exactly how or why it is generate in the human brain and some researchers have begun to suspect that people who claim to have been abducted by aliens are actually have a spontaneous DMT trip due to some malfunction if you will. Which would mean that people who make these claims might not be insane at all and did actually see aliens or elves.

Now, think about it. If you suddenly get engulfed in a DMT trip (DMT, if inhaled, takes like 10secs to hit with no real warning), and had no idea about these facts about DMT and it's effects, what would someone honestly believe? My guess is, alien abduction.

While this has nothing at all to do with the discussion, I just wanted to point out that aliens and elves was sort of a trick comparison because I know how people who, again, do not know of these things might assume that a person who makes such claims is insane.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 19 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> It is is no different than whites saying blacks are ugly b/c of their kinky hair.

Totally false. They are COMPLETELY different, and have nothing to do with one another. Physical features are not beliefs, you are BORN with them, and you could change them even if you wanted to, but if you are born "Christian" (obviously no baby is born Christian--babies have no such beliefs when they are born), meaning into a family which teaches the child Christianity, you can change those beliefs if you like whenever you like. Clinging to this kind of false argument just demonstrates what I have been saying about how religious believers will usually avoid any open-minded consideration of these matters.

> When atheists try to convert christians into atheists it is hypocritical.

If you are referring to me, I am not trying to CONVERT anyone, Mekay. I don't care what you believe. And if there is anything in this world I am NOT, it is a hypocrite.

I express my understanding of whatever topics arise on this page if and when I think I have something to add. That is the purpose of the page. That is why it is called "The Dr. Robert Forum." The idea is that I am an experienced, trained psychologist, and that I will offer information based upon that. The OP said that she felt abused by her family's trying to force their religion on her, and I replied. I replied in the form of a joke, because this entire matter is a joke. Why should one person try to force beliefs upon another? Why should parents teach their children to believe in things which theythe parentsdon't even really believe.

Following that, a conversation about religious belief ensued, and I added to the conversation how and why I think people cling so fiercely to religious ideas even though the ideas often strain credulity. I said that because those ideas are forced upon them as childrenbefore they have reached the age of reasonlater, as adults, these same people find themselves unable to consider the idea of "God" with adult reason, but become upset when those ideas are challenged. Although such people often are intelligent in other ways, on this one topic, they have been infantilized and remain that way. If you disagree, fine, but there is no hypocrisy here, and no "bashing." We are talking psychology here, right?

Now, if you are able to open your mind a bit instead of defending your beliefs as if they were life and death, I have two questions for you:

1. If religion is really important, and finding God is really the issue, why would someone from a "Christian" home automatically become a Christian? Why not a Buddhist, or a Moslem, or a Jew? If God is really that important in that person's life, why wouldn't he or she search among ALL religious traditions in order to find the one that seemed truest or seemed to be the best approach to God?

2. If they truly believed what they say they do (and what they are always telling others to believe), when receiving the diagnosis of a terminal disease, Christians should be jumping for joy, thanking the doctor for the great news, and rushing out to celebrate their imminent reunion with Jesus in Heaven. Their Christian friends should not be praying for them to be healed, but instead, filled with envy, should be congratulating them on their wonderful luck. Personally, I have never seen anything like that happen in such cases, and I do not expect to be seeing it. Why is THIS not hypocrisy?

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 57 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Molly I don't HAVE to respond to you
whether or not this is a public forum..
I didn't know their were certain rules
requiring me to respond to each and every post directed at me.

The reason I haven't responded to you is b/c of this.
Because you want to get into this conversation.

And the more you act like this the LESS I hear you. the more
I push you away. Why are you not getting that?

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I truly believe that you have rejection issues.
We never even talked on FB.

In fact you never even messaged me on Fb but once like 8 months ago.
All this has nothing to do with me. I think I tapped into something..
triggered something..
And these upset feelings you are having have to do with whomever originally treated you badly or rejected you.
I'm not being mean. I was just hurt. And I don't want people around who would tell me
that I am abusing my daughter. I just don't need that right now as hard as I am working to raise her.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Dr. R I'm not ali. And I didn't read all your post, sorry busy, not no
I wasn't saying you were trying to shove anything down anyones throat.
That didn't particularly have to do with you.. but I think the anon who was posting earlier..
and a few others I have dealt with on here.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Not ignoring you just really have to study. Promise to read it later.

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Stop CONTACTING ME! Why wont you just leave me alone! You must have serious issues since you wont let me be.

doesnt feel very good does it? And it doesnt make any sense. Welcome to my side of the computer.

(Edited 39 seconds later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 35 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Also, Dr. R. I was referring to stereotyping.
I literally wrote that response in less than a minute I am
really busy and I am having to force myself to get off here..
b/c more responses keep coming.

It may have not been the best example, but if you HONESTLY believe that
all christians are idiots .... whom have no education then I think that is ignorant.

None the less, that comment was in response to the anon who was spouting that crap not you.
All though there were some things you said I do disagree with...

I'll try to read your post later.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 seconds later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Good. Give it a read. It has two questions for you,and I would be interested to hear your replies. And in no way do I think Christians are idiots with no education. There are highly educated, highly intelligent Christians. I have a good friend who is like that--but he doesn't think I am an atheist either.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Umm.. because you randomly brought FB issues onto a
thread that had nothing to do with them..
Then started mocking my beliefs??

your logic is flawed. I didn't just randomly ask you to stop contacting me
until you CONTINUED with the insults and bringing up things that had nothing to do with the
discussion at hand Molly.

Anonymous X joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 12 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I believe you act overly deffensive towards everything. It's like you like to victimize yourself.

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

I do see that I am frustrated that you shut me out,and do not want anything to do with me. It really does stem from knowing you think I am being personal with you in talking about my own journey,and my perspectives. So I know I do not have abandonment issues. Maybe more of an issue with someone not liking me. I can see that. But the MOST frustrating part is it didn't have anything to do with you. Thats not the point though. The point is,is I can't control if someone doesn't like me.

I do see where I need to learn to be OK with this simple fact of life...this is true.

Again..you have your issues,I have mine. We certainly arent clicking. lol I wont respond to you again out of respect for the both of us.

Sherry joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
To question number one, I can only say up to a certain age that age would be the age which you were able to leave home you dare not question the faith of your father and mother. Even though in my household they did not practice what I heard in church on Sunday morning. Fear of what would happen to you would be the one thing that made you keep in line with what they believed. However, it was more than that in the South in Louisiana, you could not dare speak out at that time without fear from all points,around you. As for other faiths, at that time you could not find anything to read or even research other faiths because the books on other faiths were not allowed in the schools or the public libraries. I am not kidding you.

As to question number two I have no good answer, it is a good question given what Christians believe. I guess I'd just have to say no one is really eager to die and leave their loved ones or at least people with good mental health usually are not.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 19 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I never said abandonment I said rejection.
Which you are proving. I never said I didn't like you.

Your issue with me defriending you isn't even about the fact that
I defriended you and more about being liked.

You shouldn't have an issue that we aren't FB friends anymore in that case.
Our friendship was the least of your worries. (this doesn't bother or concern me btw)

Also, yes, yes it did. It has to do with all christians you accuse of abusing
their children b/c of their beliefs.

I am one of those parents. It has nothing to do with victimization.

Your experiences and perspectives.. are your own.

My issue was you mocking, along with some others, and if I had the time I would
go back and point them out, Christians.

And when I asked you.. you prettied up that you still believed I was abusing my daughter.
You can dress it up and make it sound nice, but that is what you told me.

I know I don't like to associate with child abusers.

yes, I get it doesn't mean they are entirely abusive.

But it was that compounded with your mocking with others on here..
it changed my perspective of you, but doesn't mean I don't like you.

It just means you're not my cup of tea.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 50 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

The truth is,is I do not even care when people defriend me.Yours came after me saying that dogma taught to children is abusive. I think why I care so much..no,that's not right..I feel hurt by your personal rejection,by defriending me,and telling me you feel like you want to say "fuck off" is because I am going through this with my mom. You not liking me,'your cup of tea' or whatever,hurts,not because of you,but you just so happened to find that hurt spot within me.That spot where I am not my moms 'cup of tea'due to her strong beliefs in needing to follow the literal christian path to eternal salvation.
I actually would LOVE for us to be honest with each other,forget our issues,and still be supportive,but I can see it takes two.

P.S,All I can give you is the depth of my truth,knowing I am not right,or wrong.I tried my very best in explaining my actions just now. I hope you find everything you are looking for. xxx

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 9 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yes, I can see how that hurts.
And I figured it had something to do with a hurt spot
that didn't have much to do with me. *I should be studying btw*

But me feeling hurt by you, hurt enough, that I want to disassociate
from you. Doesn't mean you are not worthy or a bad person.
or even an unlikeable person, because that is just simply not the case.

Jen did a really good job explaining earlier the issues that have come up with these
past couple of religious debates.

You were agreeing and cheering on some pretty hateful stuff.
I just don't think FB has any place in this.

We never talked on FB. We can still be civil. It doesn't mean I
am just going to pretend you don't exist, unless you continue to make
jokes regarding my belefs ect..

It just means.. it hurts to see your fb page.. and others commenting on
how great your insanity comment was and ect.. when I am hurt about your
opinions on the subject. It hurt to see that stuff..
So I chose not to look.

It had less to do with you, and more about protecting me.
And Jen stated my feelings very well in her comment to you.
About being hurt enough you have no desire to talk to that person anymore
as a friend of any kind.

I have always known the basis of your beliefs.. it was the way it was done..
and some of the beliefs you have are just incredibly hurtful to me
that I just can't deal with that right now.

There are much more important things, not trying to be rude here,
that I must be focusing on right now.
I can't be hurt watching someone I considered a "friend" laugh and
joke with some of the really hateful comments on the other thread.
I just can't. I am leaving my therapist this week... I am really depressed..
That also triggers my past experiences of friends who have called themselves my friends
then sat back while others mocked.

Except that isn't some random association. You actually did that.
I just have no tolerance for that anymore.

dr-robert replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Hi, Sherry--

Thanks for replying to those questions. I know you're not kidding. I once lived in Boloxi, Mississippi for six months and could not believe the way religion had mostly everyone oppressed there. People were actually frightened not to go to church. So sad really.

Yes, no one is eager to die and leave their loved ones, which is exactly why the heaven nonsense was cooked up, in my view. The ironic side to it is this: people who know that they have only a short time to live and love seem to go about it with much more freedom and energy than those who imagine that they have forever.

I am going to repeat the two questions here. I was not expecting you to replyI really meant them for Mekaybut now that you have, perhaps others would like to take a shot as well:

1. If religion is really important, and finding God is really the issue, why would someone from a "Christian" home automatically become a Christian? Why not a Buddhist, or a Moslem, or a Jew? If God is really that important in that person's life, why wouldn't he or she search among ALL religious traditions in order to find the one that seemed truest or seemed to be the best approach to God?

2. If they truly believed what they say they do (and what they are always telling others to believe), when receiving the diagnosis of a terminal disease, Christians should be jumping for joy, thanking the doctor for the great news, and rushing out to celebrate their imminent reunion with Jesus in Heaven. Their Christian friends should not be praying for them to be healed, but instead, filled with envy, should be congratulating them on their wonderful luck. Personally, I have never seen anything like that happen in such cases, and I do not expect to be seeing it. Why is THIS not hypocrisy?

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

Ok. I understand. And respect it. Just one thing just to be clear. I am not joking,making fun,or cheering on. This is a serious topic for me. One that breaks my heart even.
I do use my FB page as a place to discuss,and post these things that matter to me on the subject of chained to beliefs. I can see how someone with religious convictions must feel when seeing that.
Thank you for discussing this with me. It does make sense.Enjoy studying. :)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I don't have time to point it out Molly,
but there were definitely some off handed marks you
laughed about and responded to.

I know you can't understand why they would be hurtful, because
you aren't the person they were directed at.

And you also don't have the experience of being a believer and having to read that stuff.
But trust me, it was harsh.

And no problem

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
your posts have never bothered me either.
It was posts from other forum members
celebrating your insanity comment to me.

*when you said believing was insane*

Not to mention that person hurt me previously..
so it was hurt all around.

But anyway I need to study.. and the next time I'm on it will be
to respond to Hexi and Dr. R's posts.

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 15 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

I doubl checked the thread because that doesn't feel right. I didn't laugh or was abusive. I do take this seriously,and do not find this a laughing matter,and can't stand when anyone gangs up in any situation.
This was never a personal conversation. It still isn't.

Minus the FB thing,but it seems we cleared that up.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I could kiss you Hexi. and it was in response to something
he said I found incredibly offensive.

Again, it isn't offensive to you b/c you are not a believer.
But I am.

So it bugged me on top of everything else.
I am speaking of my experience on that thread.
How it felt to me.

it felt like bashing, and I was not the only one who perceived it that way.

It's not bashing to you, because you believe those things are true.
But anyway, again, disengaging now.

We will not ever see eye to eye on the subject.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 32 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Not trying to troll, but how is life Mekay? I know, bad time to ask especially on this thread, but did not want to bring it up on a different one.

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 59 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> It's pretty consistent. I have stated what my two issues
> were over and over and over.
>
> Give me a break.
> the whole reason I commented b/c I was agreeing with what Jen had to say.
> There was nothing more to it.. again with adding..

Hi Mekay - I get your two issues, and I can understand them. My comment about inconsistency was about what you went on to say - that religious dogma doesn't have any effect. If you can understand the effects it does have on those of us who are not religious, you might get a glimmer of why people speak so stridently about this subject.

I know you're tired of talking about this, but I will leave my comments here in case they are of interest later, or to others. I can absolutely see how it would be upsetting to be told (or have it inferred) you are abusing your child. I find it interesting because I can see that 'abuse' in this context is something totally determined by the frame through which you see the world, so from different perspectives it is both valid and not valid. Religion is not the only thing that works like this.

Spanking - if you think it damages a child's sense of safety, autonomy and trust, it's abuse. If you think it protects a child by giving them boundaries, it would be neglectful not to.
Circumcision (both male and female) - if you think cutting a child's genitals is arbitrary mutilation, it's abuse. If you think it protects a child physically and spiritually, it would be neglectful not to.
Religion - if you think a child has to believe something or they will be excluded from eternal life and the protection of the creator of the universe, it would be neglectful not to teach them that. If that doesn't hold water for you, it seems psychologically abusive to teach that to a child.

I'm making this list because I think comparing this with other versions of the same problem helps to make it less personal, and perhaps it might be useful to see if there are other situations where you would make the same or a different call about abuse/neglect based on belief.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 20 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
2 great questions. I will try to be short.. b/c I need to hit the sack
after wasting a good bit of my evening.

1. I agree with you on both. As far as the first question goes... I did JUST that.
I was also atheist for many years.

2. I have no fear of dying. Bring it on! It would be so much better than this world here.
BUT I have a daughter that would be incredibly difficult for her.. so I wouldn't just lay down and die.
Also, I want to see her grow up. The point of this world isn't just to "die and go to heaven" for me.
We are supposed to go through this life.. it's supposed to be hard. I don't claim to know or understand
everything in life. That's just how I feel about it. But I ask you.. what is the point of asking me these
questions? To challenge my beliefs right? Isn't that the same thing Christians do with evangelizing that annoy the
crap out of non believers? I don't need my beliefs challenged.

I was atheist for many years... everything Hexi says about religion could have been me at 18
hook, line, and syncher. I had my own experiences that developed my believing. It's personal,
not for anyone to judge or mock, it should be left alone. Not all Christians are the same.
The typecasting, attempt at conversion, and belittling is my only issue.

Also.. Dr. R I don't "defend my beliefs as if they were life and death"
Just as atheists or non believers hate it when Christians evangelize I don't like
it when non believers try to challenge and attempt to prove my beliefs "wrong" it's the
same damn thing.. It's a point that either isn't being understood on here.. or the parallel just
isn't clicking for people.

I am not an idiot.. I went through soul searching to get here. I was a non believer
for many years. I have made my decision. I have drawn the line in the sand, if you will.
If you don't believe there is anything .. let me have my belief... no need to challenge.
I am not harming anyone.

Just as I am not going to go around convincing everyone how they should be christian..
b/c it is just ludicrous they don't believe. I mean, I will if the person is open to it..
but I would never do it in a demeaning way. That never convinces anyone to alter their thinking
anyhow. *I am half asleep doing my best to describe coherently*

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yea I do understand where you get your logic, really. As far as your beliefs go.
I was a die hard athiest for a long time. I have never mentioned that before.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ok. I should have studied tonight.. and I wasted a lot of my time on here..
lame.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 6 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

^^^ Lol!

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 4 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yea I understand all that completely.
I have taken all the psych classes
sociology classes. All the stuff that explains it.

It's actually part of my point.. and one Jen has pointed out a few times.
We could flip anything around here from another perspective and turn it into something else.
So a lot of it really is moot.

I could put my personal reasons for things.. but I think they are obvious.
It's more than just the abuse accusations.. there have been plenty of examples
and lines quoted by Jen among other things that highlight what it was we
were disagreeing with.

But thanks for explaining that gracefully.

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Oh and one other thing on the politics..
and I guess my semi renege. I HATE politics.
I haven't paid attention in so long.. I don't even know what's going on.

The original issues I had had nothing to do with politics .. or even anyone changing
what their core beliefs are. That part was a total deterrent from what I was saying..
and didn't hold much value to me.. therefore, I didn't put much thought into it.
Abortion is an issue EVERY election. It will never be completely outlawed no matter how
hard extreme rights try.

Not all christians are anti- abortionists either. there is a lot of lumping goin
on.

One of the most radical women I know goes to church every Sunday. Not a hard right church...
but she has belief in God. I think a relationship with God is a personal one.
People who make it all about politics.. and condemning others to hell aren't even
focusing on God. They are too busy judging everyone else.
you're not from America.. but aLOT of us here have given up on politics
at this point in time. I don't know anyone who feels they have choices
or are secure about their influence on any political issue right now.

Which is why the uproar of Occupy wall street happened.
It's not making much hedge way... more throwing up of the hands.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 9 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Problem is that when people give up on politics it just creates a vacuum where those who want power the most take it. I guess my point is that you may not be interested in politics, but unfortunately giving your support to a church is a political act. Churches have political voices and they use them all the time. Not just incidentally - actively, strategically, intentionally.

Anon H made a great list of some of the intersections of religion and politics:

"Tell me how many religious you know who do not believe at least ONE of these things: abortion should be illegal, same sex marriage should not be legal, evolution isn't true or incomplete, creation OR intelligent design should be in science books, we need a death penalty, this nation is a christian nation, abstinence should be taught rather then safe sex, non Christians aren't as moral, global warming is a hoax or incomplete, we don't have to worry about global warming because of God's protection, I will be voting (candidate name) because they're Christian, contraception should be avoided, I'm not voting for (candidate) because they're (other religion)... "

So I wanted to say if you're supporting a church you want to be very conscious about exactly what you're supporting.

One other question (when you're not studying/asleep). If your daughter came to you aged 12 or 13 and said she didn't believe in God any more and didn't want to go to church, how would you feel? What would you do?

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

I agree. Quite refreshing of a perspective,and very graceful.

Now we should view the long term effects on what we portray is right vs wrong with your list,as well as many other things not on that list. Socially,and environmentally. After all,it's not about just blindly following,but observing if our actions aren't causing bigger issues.

At least this is what I like to investigate. I'm not perfect,but I want to learn,not just believe I know anymore. It's humbling. The hardest words to swallow,"I don't know." The cool thing though is those words lead to,"but I want to learn."

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

With all due respect Sifter, you
have no idea what type of church I attend.
Or what it's political beliefs are.

I haven't revealed any of that.
That's where the typecasting comes in.. you just naturally
assume all christians... and christian churches are the same.
When they're not.

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I would never force my child to believe.
She is incredibly happy right now and loving her school.
But I believe she would find her way back to God, but I would
never force that on her.

If she told me right now she unhappy in her christian school
I would find another school for her.

I don't believe in forcing anything on your children..
if anything that moves them MUCH further from God then they
may have been otherwise.. as is evident here.

like I said, there are some serious over generalizing of Christian folk
on this here forum.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

Well Mekay.....why don't you educate us? I'm kinda curious since you suggested it is nothing like what we may think. I am speaking about the church you attend by the way.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

I will always accept my daughter for who she is
no matter what decisions she makes.. even if I want better for her.

She may very well do that.. I did it. I'll be able to relate to her
on a new level. If I can find my way back.. without a parent "shoving it down my throat"
as is said here.. so can she. I am not authoritarian by any means. She needs room to grow
and discover. If I impede on that.. I damage our relationship and a relationship she has with God in the long run.


Children are naturally rebellious anyway. If I say you must LOVE pink she is going to hate pink.
My daughter is VERY strong minded, and has no problem disagreeing with me already.

Not all kids are just easily brainwashed.. into whatever. She asks critical questions about God all the time..
and comes up with her own interpretations.. This is good.

I hope she forms a close relationship with God, but ultimately, that's between her and God.
I can encourage her.. but never shame force or abuse.

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I have no interest delving too far into my personal beliefs on this
forum. For obvious reasons.

But I will say there are MANY left wing churches, centrist churches ect..
Extreme right churches are a very small group of churches right now.

Screw it.. my schedule doesn't allow me to attend my current church right now.
The last 2 churches I attended were accepting of gays and lesbians.
And had many gay/lesbian members.

I try not to focus on others and their relationship with God, what they are doing wrong
ect..

I try to focus on me .. and what it is I WANT out of my relationship with God.
And what I think God expects out of me. My focus is on making myself a better person (even though I
am ridiculously weak/human sometimes) and strengthening my relationship with him.

there is so much work that needs to be done, intrinsically, in me I find it is highly hypocritical
to go around telling others how they should live their lives.

I honestly would be happy being able to retire or travel the world helping the needy..
and being close to God. That's my goal.

The rest.. I can't waste the energy on the rest. That's what is important to me in my spiritually .

(Edited 16 minutes later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 6 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> I have no interest delving too far into my personal beliefs on this
> forum. For obvious reasons.
>
> But I will say there are MANY left wing churches, centrist churches ect..
> Extreme right churches are a very small group of churches right now.

Ok, sorry to barge in like, but I just HAVE to ask. You see nothing at all wrong with churches having political agendas?

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I never said that. You are asking like I said I see nothing wrong with it.
I said not all churches have a political agenda.

I said earlier I could give a crap about politics right now.
Or any of that stuff people get huffy over. If it is something that, essentially,
hurts others.. I would get involved.

But most of it is a matter of arguing over who's right or wrong..
and I just don't want to waste my energy on that.
It goes no where.. nothing ever changes.
There will always be opposing views.. that just further separate people.
It's almost counterproductive.

I don't believe in ANYONE having complete control over politics.
That usually ends up in horrible affairs.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I just asked you a simple question, stop perceiving everything as an attack. Please tell me though, why do you feel the need to take part in discussions that have nothing at all to to do with you since you don't care about anything that doesn't affect you?

(Edited 55 seconds later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I didn't take it as an attack I corrected you.
This is why I don't reveal things about myself.
you like to twist.

If I only cared about me I would have no interest in the needy.
I said I have no interest in telling people how to live their lives.
Or judging them. Big difference.

you think you know me or something.
You don't. Half of your presumptions are so far off I have
absolutely no clue where you get them from.

In fact, I see absolutely no reason to respond to you if you're going
to twist and put words in my mouth. I don't see what that does for you, but have at it.
I'll know not to respond from now on.

Hexi, it has been repeated over and over what my issue was.
I refuse to spell it out to you again.

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 6 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I was agreeing with Jen that's why. and I wanted to point out
what I feel is a hypocrisy.

that's my prerogative.

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 47 seconds later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

I asked you a few simple things without implying, hinting or suggesting anything and not only did you not respond to what I actually asked, but explode on me.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

And I didn't say that I don't care about anything
that doesn't affect me.

I said I don't care about going round and round
on stupid political debates.

That, as Sifter pointed out, can be viewed from many different angles
devalidating them and justifying them.


That is a seriously far fetched interpretation of that I said and a blanket statement.
You are taking what I said out of context. That's not how this works.
I tell YOU what I mean not the other way around. Since you don't live in my head and all.

My spiritually and politics are two separate things for me. You have difficulty separating the two.
I don't mess in other's spiritual affairs unless they are open to it.. not the same as not caring
about things that don't affect me .. or my disdain for my political system.

Which I am telling you MANY Americans have lost hope in the political issue those are TWO separate subjects..
and as I stated earlier I don't care to mesh politics and Christianity.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what me and Jen were originally disagreeing with
what so ever. so I have no interest in communicating about politics anymore since it isn't one of my two issues.

Mekay double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You have no idea what my demeanor is.
this is by no means exploding on you.


You like to mind fuck.

You insinuated I had no problem with politics and christianity influence.
I told you I didn't say that. That's not exploding.

Exploding would be

FUCK YOU HEXI!! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE

You fill in the rest.
I am just telling you like it is and keeping it real.
I'm sorry if you're sensitive to that.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 10 seconds later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Give me a break. She's been writing more calm than I would be. You are antagonizing her and why? Because she stands up for her beliefs in a logical sane way and you can't stand being wrong? Or is it just because she is a christian? Makes people wonder why they even bother to talk at all.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 8 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
What movie is that with jackie chan and what's his name from Friday?

"do you understand the words that are comin outta my mouth!?"
that's what it feels like.

twist twist twist.

(Edited 41 seconds later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.1 years ago, 57 seconds later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ok.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yeah, its what happens to me when I talk too. It's just not worth it here in my opinion. This place is only good for the occasional laugh anymore. Also, I'm sure there is someone right around the corner waiting to tell you how childish and afraid you are and how you talk to Big Daddy in the sky and all that as if you're, you know, subhuman.

(Edited 13 minutes later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 25 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
LOL! Well luckily that just reflects on their character..
not mine.

Likewise, I hate the type of christians who talk down to non believers
and tell them they are going to hell ect.. that's so alienating..
If I had some Christian doing that to me when I was atheist..
I would have NEVER been open to Christianity.. it would put the nail in the coffin.

I don't like that ostracizing crap on either side.
But we can repeat this over and over...

Whether it will get through, doubtful.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 42 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
People would actually have to have an open mind about some things and there just aren't many open minded people here.

Jennifer double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 55 seconds later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

But, I for one, think you are very brave to be as open as you have been in spite of all the crap that's been thrown out.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hey thanks Jen. I think the same thing about you!
you always stand up for what you believe in, and i admire that!

It is a rare strength! (in the face of adversity)

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> With all due respect Sifter, you
> have no idea what type of church I attend.
> Or what it's political beliefs are.
>
> I haven't revealed any of that.
> That's where the typecasting comes in.. you just naturally
> assume all christians... and christian churches are the same.
> When they're not.

With all due respect, Mekay, I didn't make that assumption. If you read my words, you'll see that. I said that I hoped you knew what positions your church took publically and covertly, and I still hope that, because whether you are conscious of it or not, and whether they use it or not, your church attendance and any money you give them lends political power to your church leaders.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 6 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Sifter. I am not an idiot. If you read my
posts you'll see I'm not attending any church right now.
So I don't need the lecture or the sarcasm.

When I said with all due respect I meant it.
As in respectfully I say this.

Not as a way to attack you. you don't know if I tithe or any of that.
You don't know how big my church is or what's it's influence is.

And quite frankly.. none of that is any of your business or has anything to
do with why I came on here.

You keep presuming I am just some blind lost follower..
which proves my point on the judgements and stereotyping.

I am 26 years old.. and intelligent. I do critically think you know.
It's insulting you think you even need to give me that advice.

I have rejected many churches for several different reasons. If I feel
there is wrong doing I wont go.

You also have no clue what all my political stances are either.
I don't need your advice on where it is I'll attend. I can make that
decision completely on my own thank you. I'll attend one that fits my needs.
Not yours not anyone else's.

There is no need to give me a list of qualifications.

(Edited 5 minutes later.)

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Mekay... when I said 'I hope' I meant 'I hope'. You're right, I don't know any of that stuff. That is why I am hoping, not accusing, attacking or judging. I didn't ask, I didn't assume, and I didn't offer advice. I just expressed my hope, because what each of us does affects the world. I was surprised that you thought religious dogma doesn't affect the non-religious. When I saw that I thought you weren't thinking critically in that instance, and that was what prompted me to express my hope that you research, because based on that it seemed there is a chance that you don't. That's all. It's no big deal - you said yourself you hadn't thought that hard about that part of the post.

The other stuff you are reading in. I know that there are a lot of different kinds of churches, I know that I don't know what kind of church you go to, I know that I have no idea about your political stances. I didn't say otherwise.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You and Mekay aren't keeping it real, you guys never really did. Both of you are infamous for your passive aggression and every time others ask you to explain yourselves after some dramatic outburst you both calm down and claim it was everyone else flipping out and being judgmental. Stop acting like martyrs in the land of the condemning. You both want to open up so badly but are afraid of what truths others may have to say. This isn't about religion for either of you anymore, this is more about you furthering your isolation from the general public. You both are the special ones that "keep it real" and speak out to the "blind ones". You both have lost your sight over the years; you aren't completely blind yet, but neither of you are doing anything to strengthen your seeing either.

Ailonna double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Mekay, and this is advice I hope you actually take in and follow, PLEASE learn to read everything that is said to you, and stop to take time to think about it. Actually pause and ask yourself if you understand what is being said. If you do, then respond in a way that does not seem defensive. It always seems like you are defending yourself when most of the time people are not attacking you. In order to remain strong you have to get this victim mentality out of your mind. You aren't a victim anymore so stop acting like one.

Should you find yourself not understanding, then ask people what they meant. Many have asked questions and you say you aren't going to let them know anything, but yet you continue on with the aforementioned topic. This naturally is only going to make others ask more questions. You are defending your beliefs that you won't let others know about, you get offended and tell us not to assume anything but you aren't giving any answers. You are correct, you don't have to share if you don't want to, but it isn't right to advertise then not sate anyone's curiosity. If you don't want to disclose then don't advertise. This is all like some sick control mechanism.

Mekay joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 14 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

Ali stop acting like you have any clue what you're talking about.

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Look, my point was politics are always the same.
Everyone is acting like these are new issues being pushed.
They're not. You're still focusing on something I didn't even care to discuss to begin with.

Now, I am done with this. I have answered everything best I can. and WITH thought.
As far as answering questions ect.. Ali.. I don't have to do that.
I came on here to point out two things. whatever else it has swerved into has
been an option to respond to. Not a requirement.

Have a good one going back and forth and going no where. I know I feel
like I wasted a substantial amount of time.

Molly replied with this 5.1 years ago, 45 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

The marrow of this thread is the psychological aspects of the religious stories(After all,this is a psychology forum) ,and how it gets stuck in the mind. This thread was intended to be about investigating those aspects on a non-biased perspective. It seems when one doesn't want to investigate the psychological aspect of beliefs,and need their beliefs for whatever their reasons are..it would make sense that they need to look at this thread as how this is a 'dominating' discussion. A way to knock out 'their' views in order to be like 'us'. Although there is no us,or they. Just people trying to have a discussion on something that means a lot to them.People who WANT to see what the psychological aspects of beliefs handed down. This was about the human mind,and not about the division between believer vs non believes.

Anyway...regardless.There are MANY good gems in this thread. It wasn't in vein IMO. If one has the eye on wanting to investigate the mental aspects of beliefs,and dogma of the human condition,this is all worth reading!:)

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 31 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
This is precisely what I am talking about Mekay. You disregard anything when you feel attacked. I know what I am talking about. I'm not able to bring forth ideas if I didn't have experience in the matter, that's just not how I work. If you are officially done, then be done. I'm not the one going back and forth as you suggest Mekay, I only move forward. You are the one, in case you forgot, going back and forth between religions, therapists, and your past. That was not a low blow, it was the truth. You are going off on Sifter and she is one of the most understandable kind hearted people here. I think it's tragic that instead of asking me where I get these ideas you immediately shut this down and close it off. You aren't hear to listen, so what is your point?

I sincerely mean this when I say I hope you help yourself. You *try* to have a good life.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
With the responses I've gotten here because I stood up for people who were being mocked and insulted, fuck yeah I feel like a martyr in the land of the condemning. You all are being complete assholes. It wouldn't be that dramatic of a next step for some of you to start beating up religious people while some of you stood back and laughed. It would be called a hate crime then because of all the.. you know.. hate.

But, I have to ask, Ailonna, what would help me to further my seeing? Agreeing with everything you say? Dr Robert says? Hexi says? Would it be to stand back while others are treated like shit and say nothing? I think I would rather be blind.

(Edited 13 minutes later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 45 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

^^^ What made you ask the last parts of your comment?

(Edited 17 seconds later.)

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> You both have lost your sight over the years; you aren't completely blind yet, but neither of you are doing anything to strengthen your seeing either.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

How does that comment make you feel?

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I think that you only say that because I disagreed with how Dr. Robert and the rest decided to make their point. I think you would rather I stood back and said nothing. So, it makes me pretty angry because I was doing what I believe was the right thing to do.

(Edited 4 minutes later.)

Narc joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 55 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

I made a post in the "Please read everyone" topic and I think it's pretty relevant to what's being discussed here, too.

> Anyway, if you don't mind me giving my two cents I think any topic of discussion should be allowed as long as it doesn't insult anyone as a person. Personally I think it's perfectly okay to question religions as long as it's done in a good manner. Obviously some people might still get offended that always happens but it does not mean that we should get offended ourselves, because that's when good discussion deteriorates into flame war. Explaining your point of view in a different, more elaborate manner might make the other party to understand that you weren't trying to offend them. If it doesn't, then in my opinion it's completely fine to ignore the person.
> It also wouldn't hurt to try to put yourself in the other person's position and try to think whether you would be offended if somebody said something similar to you.
>
> Also, I think the difference between a debate and a discussion should be recognized. A debate usually requires an audience and the point of a debate is to win. A good discussion is something conducted between open-minded people and the point of it is to learn. If there's a debate going on it's smart to think twice whether contributing to it will ever bear any fruit, as neither side will likely yield. Seeing your own ideals get trashed on a public forum might not be the most pleasant sight but it should be kept in mind that most issues, concerning religions for example, are being discussed on a global scale everywhere in the world and winning a debate on a small forum like this will most likely mean nothing. You'll probably only gain a few angry posts and get some people to leave the forum.

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Anonymous Z-4 joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 2 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
cheap shot at Ailonna there Mekay, you think you can just make a statement like that and you need not say more. Stop with the victim shit and tell the people what the want to know, give them the facts about your church if you indeed have nothing to hide. I have been reading this long enough to know you do not have the backbone to stand up for what you really believe.

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Jesus Christ! How many times does she have to say she doesn't attend a freakin church? And since when is it required for one person to answer to another? Fuck that.

(Edited 39 seconds later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thanks for that honesty. Just know I don't favor the Doc, and I hardly ever read his comments. I have nothing against him personally but he doesn't interest me as much as the readers do. He almost doesn't exist until I make a conscious effort to remember that he does. What about my commentary over the years makes you think I am always on his side and that I would rather you sit back and say nothing?

In this case, what was "the right thing to do?" and why was it "right"?

Anonymous Z-4 replied with this 5.1 years ago, 34 seconds later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Jesus Christ! How many times does she have to say she doesn't attend a freakin church? And since when is it required for one person to answer to another? Fuck that.

since forever BTW and yet :)

(Edited 2 minutes later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 7 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hey there stranger, fuck off. Don't use me as a reason to harass Mekay. Nothing you stated was insightful or even helpful. You are regurgitating what I said and bastardizing its meaning. If you are going to talk shit, at least get a name, you coward. I want to be able to address you by a proper title. I'll give you one: ASSHOLE

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I suppose I lumped you in with the rest because you had questions. I apologize. I forgot that you love to question things simply to learn the answer and not because you want to interrogate someone to try and prove them wrong.
The right thing to do was to stand up against someone who belittled others because they believed differently. It was right because he was a Dr. of psychology and was abusing his power and was getting the rest to follow along in belittling, then denying the whole thing and then decided to start insulting me in retribution.

(Edited 8 minutes later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 39 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Thank you for admitting that Jennifer.

I think you just displayed a good honest example of what takes place often when you (sometimes), and Mekay, interact in a personal discussion here. You both lump everyone as people that are against you, and this is what I meant when I said you guys are still blind. You weren't aware that this reaction to questions you guys put out there was all by your doing. Just like myself, there are many people who just want to understand, and you and Mekay automatically put us all in the category of the "assholes" who are trying to get off on this. Instead of becoming aware of the differences by paying close attention to your interactions with people here, you just throw them all in one category to make judgment easier on yourselves. It isn't exactly fair. One negative situation doesn't mean ALL will be the same.

I must ask, why do you believe he was belittling anyone with the comment? Is that really what started all of this "White Knight-ship" on your end?

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 21 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Well, first of all he says this forum is about serious discussion and to treat people who ask questions with respect and all that, then answers the OPs question the way he did. How disrespectful to the OPs parents that would be to actually say something like that. I would suspect he would get, at least, a smack on the face for something like that from the older generation.

Then he followed it up with comments such as these:
"I oppose religion only because the harm it does, added to the stupidity and credulity of its "faithful," offends my sensibilities. Simple as that."
"Yes, I rarely call anyone on that stuff personally myself. Just not worth the trouble. Too predictable. I do it here because this is a place for honesty and rinsing off the acquired bullshit. Helping others to see their bullshit and peel some of it away is really the best we humans can do for one another in my view." (The bullshit in this case being another persons spiritual beliefs)
Then after that he turns on me, telling me that no scientists blah blah blah to which I kindly posted another article that was more up to date and included much more to refute the article he quoted and was basically told it doesn't count because they are not noble prize winners, I was told to stop trying to psychoanalyze him, and that I need to go say my prayers.
Then he started saying more things like this: "People who need that kind of belief will never be open to reason. They become frightened, upset, or angry if someone will not play along with the fairy tale about Big Daddy in the sky who tells people what to do and not do, and who is so narcissistic that he loves prayers (eats them for breakfast). God "loves" everyone, BUT if you fuck up, you will suffer—possibly forever. Amazing!" (And in the same paragraph said something along the lines of that's not bashing. Get real!)
Anyway, maybe after reading this you can see where I was coming from. That's not nearly all of it. But, I think this demonstrates why I felt the way I felt.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 13 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
So even thought the topic is religion this has more to do with what you see as hypocrisy on his end, am I wrong? I want to make this clear before I go any further to avoid misconstruing anything.

EDIT: My computer is tripping hardcore, so if I double post deal with it, cuz I won't be able to fix it.

(Edited 40 seconds later.)

Ailonna double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 49 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Do realize that I am not taking anyone's side. I like to remain neutral, and point out the obvious or the facts of the matter, nothing else.

The OP is basically saying that they want to find a way to still communicate in the discussions the family has and be involved without it always having to be about religion. They want to be open with their beliefs (or lack of) but don't know how to without fearing their judgment and possible dis-ownership. The Docs response I took as a joke, but the actual meaning was to let them know that they are entitled to their beliefs, and that they will respect those beliefs, but in return the family has to respect the OP's lack of belief or following a religious structure. When you leave out the emotional aspect of that joke, the message was obvious.

> "I oppose religion only because the harm it does, added to the stupidity and credulity of its "faithful," offends my sensibilities. Simple as that."

The "I oppose religion..." part of his statement indicates an opinion. Nothing about this should offend anyone because his opinion is only that. His opinion shouldn't cause grief to you. Why does it?

> "Yes, I rarely call anyone on that stuff personally myself. Just not worth the trouble. Too predictable.

This may be in person, where people too heavily involved and afraid or angry in their personal doubt will act out physically, as I had stated in a comment to Hexi. Sadly, a man stating his opinion to other men can and often does lead to physical contact. Some people get so heated when their faith is questioned because they made their faith the only thing to keep them going. In a way it is testing a man's existence and significance. This has more to do with ego than it is faith.

> I do it here because this is a place for honesty and rinsing off the acquired bullshit. Helping others to see their bullshit and peel some of it away is really the best we humans can do for one another in my view." (The bullshit in this case being another persons spiritual beliefs)

That was stated blatantly. It is safer here to try and point out the obvious bullshit people otherwise would not give you the chance to state if it were in person. In reality people get loud, and make any discussion uncomfortable with emotional and physical over reactions. In situations like that nothing is being heard anymore. It is common to misconstrue words when they are written because you can't see the emotions involved in human interaction, but because for the most part it is written in a language we all should understand we should take it at word value leaving out the emotional because there are no facial cues or body gestures to display anything a person could be feeling. The same reason some of you would rather write a note to your therapists instead of telling them to their face. More can be heard without emotions getting in the way.

> Then after that he turns on me,

What indicated that he turned on you Jennifer? How do you know he did?

> Then he started saying more things like this: "People who need that kind of belief will never be open to reason. They become frightened, upset, or angry if someone will not play along with the fairy tale about Big Daddy in the sky who tells people what to do and not do, and who is so narcissistic that he loves prayers (eats them for breakfast). God "loves" everyone, BUT if you fuck up, you will suffer—possibly forever. Amazing!" (And in the same paragraph said something along the lines of that's not bashing. Get real!)

But it isn't bashing. If anyone actually sat down and read the bible, and compared it to anything in reality with all of the scientific proof of how the world has never, and just does not, work like that, then all of what he stated would be a "No shit!" kind of reaction. We are told that God is all loving, and all knowing and nonjudgmental and would never bother with the likes of sinners, yet he will make a bet with Satan on how loyal some of his followers are (narcissism), when if he were everything he claims to be (and what others say he is) he would not need to stoop down to Satan's level. Why prove anything if you have faith in yourself and your gestures, especially in such a fucked up way by killing a man's family, taking his fortune, giving him a sickness, and ruining his life. In that very tale he is falling for Satan's provocations while at the same time telling his believers to not listen to the words of satan. The contradiction is enough to make anyone question if they actually paid attention. THIS is why most people did not understand Mekay's comments. They were contradictions. Most of the people who don't follow the bible or any religious structure, or faith, have done their homework, and came to the conclusion that non of it makes sense. Unlike most followers, they investigated.

You should always investigate if something doesn't seem right, and with proper investigation the truth will come out. To me it seems like some people just don't want to, and if they don't want to, it seems like they are choosing to remain blind when they can see. I see this all the time with people and their so called problems. They could easily investigate themselves and their actions and I am positive they will come to a legitimate, scientifically proven, answer. It's just that some would rather stay safe and miserable than have to work and get uncomfortable for happiness. Does this make any sense to you? I have written an essay, there isn't much more I can make obvious after this...

Jennifer replied with this 5.1 years ago, 53 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Ailonna, I appreciate you taking the time to write all this but honestly I'm to hurt to even try to see this from a different angle. If you ever wanna talk to me you can find me on facebook at jennifer.wennifer6@gmail.com. Anyone else can as well.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I'll be sure and give you a full report on my future
church once my psychic abilities kick in.


Also, I don't have to give anyone personal information about my church.
Are you kidding me? Who is it you think you are? Am I under government scrutiny?
I have been standing up for my beliefs.

If I didn't have the backbone I'd keep my mouth shut to avoid idiotic statements like this.

(Edited 6 minutes later.)

Sifter replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
That was Sherry, and I have banned her for a week. If she does it again when she comes back the ban will be permanent. Sherry, you've had heaps of chances to get on board. This is the last one.

Mekay replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Hey thanks Sifter. I am sorry I am snappy.
I'm with Jen.. I don't have the energy to explain all my snappyness.
*as I have been pretty patient with some of the most difficult to talk to*

Same to Ali. It's not my character to get that snappy... that's what happens
when I feel pushed to the edge.

I don't feel heard here. I know it is b/c our perceptions do not allow us to
see outside of our experience. Contrary to popular belief, this is on BOTH sides.


I don't want to get into a debate about it just thought I would say that.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 13 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
god dammit.....i wrote all of this for nothing :(

Ailonna double-posted this 5.1 years ago, 3 days later, 6 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

> To cause someone to feel pain or fear just because they choose to make their life better with a religion you don't like is horrible, unthinkable. That is what I think...

I really don't understand that comment there, because I was not under the impression that anyone was asking you to do any of that. I don't dislike religion (as in personally hate it), and contrary to belief I would never force someone to see my point of view. I don't really have one. I am not agnostic, or athiest, or a follower (believer). I just go with what has an answer, and if it can be proven wrong faster that it can be proven to be true, then I will side on the one with fact.

Naturally I have more questions, I always do, but if this is where you want it to end I can humbly accept your wish. Take care Jennifer. If ever I feel like stalking you I will show up on your facebook page. Hopefully you won't be scared and will accept the messages.

Later. And thanks <3

Marc joined in and replied with this 5.1 years ago, 3 hours later, 6 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

I would say something like that: Sorry, religion is a personal matter and I don't believe in same things as you do. Please spare me this talk. I have my right to choose what to believe in.

Ailonna replied with this 5.1 years ago, 5 hours later, 6 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I wrote you on facebook asking if I was speaking to the right person, and got ignored Jennifer, so whatever it is you are trying to do here don't act like I didn't try to make an attempt at speaking to you in an area more comfortable to you. I have expressed many times how I felt towards you and I have been incredibly blunt with you here. I never lied to you, so if you somehow feel betrayed by me that is for sure your doing. If ever I could meet you in person I could consider you a friend, but I am too realistic to call people friends when I am only speaking to the on the internet. Friend or foe, if that person is being an idiot or overall not getting it, I will let them know, especially after tedious back and forths that go no where.
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