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Topic: Treatment for Psychopathy

Adrift started this discussion 5.2 years ago #2,549

I'm new here, I just made my first posts a few minutes ago. I thought I should introduce myself, although I technically did that in my first post. I'm Adrift, and I'm a psychopath.

It's only been in the past two years that I've been able to put a label on the idiosyncrasies that have plagued my life. Although the people around me might not have used such a casual term, that's just how it felt to me.

I've read every article, book, story, or newspaper clipping I could find to learn about psychopathy. My urge to control things comes through understanding; one of my regular sayings is "As soon as you fully understand something, you've gained control of it."

The first of the past two years was filled with mostly reading and trying to learn. The next year included less reading, but much more application. My usual attitude towards an obstacle presented to me is an attempt to understand as much as I possibly can in order to simultaneously learn how to cheat the system legally, if possible. Psychopathy was no different.

I refuse to go to prison, I would lose all control if my freedom was taken from me. I also don't want to die at 28 from a cocaine overdose, HIV, or getting shot in the back by someone I've crossed. I've used those things as my focus as much as possible to keep myself from doing impulsive and reckless things. At the same time, I've been trying to develop ways to game the system that psychopathy presents.

I believe that the reason so many treatments have failed miserably stems from the fact that they're trying to break down the door instead of climb through the window. Trying to make a psychopath internalize and respond to the feelings of others isn't going to work. It needs to be a logical explanation of the benefits and costs. To combat the long term planning difficulties, I've started setting a series of repeating, short term goals to get that instant gratification that I want.

I've also started thinking about where much of this detachment comes from. That led to thinking more in depth about the mask. I put on this mask, and many others, on a daily basis. I never reveal myself. When I try to reveal myself, even in private, I'm left confused. I don't feel like I have anything that I would really count as me. I was a series of reflections and repetitions ordered in a cunning and visually impressive manner. I'm nothing more than a real-time photoshop expert.

I've always been focused on language, so the word "internalizing" struck me as meaning that inner self that I found I was lacking. I thought to myself, what if the emotional detachment and resulting consequences are a result of having no truly defined persona. Without that, how can I attach myself to anything? How can I feel someone else's pain if I can't feel my own? Perhaps, with work on better defining myself in a healthy way, I'd be able to release the negative tendencies associated with this affliction.

I also realized, during all of this introspection, that when I think about who and what I am, I float off into a fantasy land/day dream where I'm looking at someone else's actions and judging them for it. On some level I know that I'm effectively acknowledging all of the bad things that I've done, but I just can't seem to effect any meaningful changes.

I'm coming in search of assistance. I've found that I'm unable to perform this task on my own. I've made attempts to contact therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists to no avail. I don't want to manipulate my way into therapy under false pretenses or it won't have a chance in the world of being successful. If I've manipulated successfully once, I'll be sure to try it again; there's not a whole lot I can do about it at this point.

Dr. Robert seems as though he's open to ideas and options. This forum appears to be the same way.

Is there anyone that has considered this topic seriously?

Do you have any comments regarding my post?

Do you have any experiences or thoughts of your own to share?

Hexi joined in and replied with this 5.2 years ago, 9 hours later[^] [v] #0

No amount of therapy will ever do shit because there is nothing to solve. I live by 3 small things which keep me afloat.

The smallest kindness is more beneficial to you than the greatest insult.
Whether you care or not, there are consequences and consequences don't give a shit about you.
If you can't handle and impulse then avoid triggering it.

I no longer have the desire to argue on this forum so take these as you wish, I don't care.

Sifter joined in and replied with this 5.2 years ago, 1 hour later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

This is an interesting post. You want to release the negative tendencies associated with psychopathy: which in particular? The lack of a sense of self?

What happens when you try to contact therapists or psychologists?

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 10 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
The problem with that is that psychopathy doesn't cause any tendencies, it simply removes the natural inhibitions and concerns of actions. To put it simply, being a psychopath doesn't make you a killer, being a killer makes you a killer.

Most professionals refuse to work with psychopaths because it's a waste of time and accomplishes nothing because, again, nothing is broken.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 5 minutes later, 10 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
If someone has a particular aspect of their being or life that they feel dissatisfied with, whether it's a tendency or a lack of a tendency, I see no reason why they shouldn't pursue help. 'Nothing is broken' in 'normal' psychology but plenty of people seek, and find, help.

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 51 minutes later, 11 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Psychedelics are far better for you than therapy if "being a dick" is your biggest problem. Oh and yes, I can dig up studies that heavily support this if you really care.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 47 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
But of course I'd be interested in seeing that. I've read of studies that report psychedelics as having therapeutic effects in therapeutically controlled settings, and if I remember rightly a comparison study that showed CBT and psychedelics as having comparable effects for grief-related conditions, but not what you describe. Yes please.


(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
It's underlined if I remember to sign in. And if I'm not an imposter. You could always go back to Scrappy Coco to make you feel better?

Sifter double-posted this 5.2 years ago, 16 minutes later, 12 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
If I had star-power, do you think I would be getting around with a freaking underline while Hexi is the resident christmas tree?

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 7 hours later, 20 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/story/health/story/2011-09-29/Magic-mushroom-drug-may-improve-personality-long-term/50602264/1

That's one I found rather fast.

I also want to stress I don't advocate random, recreational use of psychedelics in any way. If you want to try these chemicals out, do so with serious intent, in a controlled environment and with someone there, sober, in case you get a bad ride.

Oh and Jake, only the site admin Meals can put a star on your ID. :)

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Hexi double-posted this 5.2 years ago, 14 minutes later, 20 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I didn't. At one time he was doing some work on the site to add some features for the doc and asked if any of us regulars wanted a star after our names. Others have just lost it cause of cookie deletion. :P It's just something he added for fun, it means nothing lol.

I think Evangelinemade still has hers.

(Edited 3 minutes later.)

Hexi triple-posted this 5.2 years ago, 10 minutes later, 20 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Haven't seen diff around in ages so don't know.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 2 hours later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
So, it's one of the preliminary studies I read about. Taking place in a controlled therapeutic environment, with no comparison to therapy on similar measures. So, kind of a red herring here as it doesn't show better results than therapy, and nor does it provide relief from the kinds of issues the OP is describing. I know you don't LIKE the sound of therapeutic treatment for psychopathy, Hexi (you do object every time it's mentioned...) but that doesn't mean that others may not find it worth exploring.

Exploring treatment in this area would have no guarantees, but if the client were sufficiently self-motivated, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be helpful. The poster has already gained some interesting insights from self-reflection; working with a skilled other would probably accelerate this.

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 28 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I don't understand why you always need to make assumptions about things I say, and then put words into my mouth and act like I've said something I haven't.

First, I have nothing at all against therapy but the affects are extremely limited in a psychopaths case. Robert himself has explained why on multiple occasions so I'm not going to.

Second, Not once did I say that psychedelics are a substitute for therapy. They are extremely powerful introspective tools that help you deal with things and see yourself in a different way, absent ego.

Here is a wealth of information and studies for you.
http://www.maps.org/

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 51 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Psychedelics are far better for you than therapy if "being a dick" is your biggest problem. Oh and yes, I can dig up studies that heavily support this if you really care.

...are you trolling me? Genuinely puzzled.

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 14 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
What part of the word 'if' puzzles you?

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 10 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
What part of "heavily support" means "tenuously tangentially relate" to you?

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 21 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
You obviously didn't bother reading anything on the second link I posted.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 19 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
http://www.maps.org/resources/papers/

None of the papers listed here compare the efficacy of drugs to therapy. Did I miss something?

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 14 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Yeah, you didn't actually read much of anything. Don't pretend like you did. I don't know what's your fucking problem this time, but I can't be bothered with you. The information and data is there, you just don't want to make any effort in looking into anything you don't like.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 10 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
... ...Hexi, I'm not pretending anything. Scientific convention is that the titles of studies tell you the parameters of the study. It's really clear. Those studies don't discuss what you claimed was 'heavily supported'. Just admit it and then we can all have a friendly cup of tea and admire your star.

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 12 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Here is the thing. You ask something which you know is practically impossible to confirm to your expectations because you act stupid to achieve said expectations. Obviously, you can't research how 2 things that help with the same issue work on the same person and you *know* this.

What the research there shows is that certain substances have a tremendous effect on how people interact with others after only a few sessions. You know therapy takes months to achieve that kind of behavioral changes.

Well, there is the possibility that you just really ARE that stupid, in which case it's a waste of time to try to make you understand anything. Either way, believe what you wish.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 8 hours later, 1 day after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Don't bother with the 'stupid' line, it's not distracting anyone except you. It would be helpful for you to learn more about scientific method in the social sciences. If you wanted to establish what you claimed was 'heavily supported', you could, by means of a comparative study with two groups of subjects (plus a control group) with the same type of diagnosis and severity of symptoms. Unfortunately research into psychedelics has been very difficult to get approved for a while (that is apparently changing a little lately in the US), so there's not much of it around. That's why I was surprised and interested to see you make the claim you did.

You should also know that there are certain therapeutic interventions to certain conditions that DO show sharp behavioural changes in short periods of time. CBT for uncomplicated anxiety, for example, and (in some studies) EMDR for PTSD. But without controlled comparative studies, it's foolish to try to draw conclusions across fields.

Back to the actual thread topic. As for what works for psychopathy, my understanding is that the research on this is very limited - *especially* for psychopaths who voluntarily pursue treatment out of self-motivation. I'd say you're in essentially uncharted waters there, so if the OP really is self-motivated, it would be interesting to see the result. It's possible they'd have as much chance at change out of therapy as anyone else who actually chooses it - self-motivation lays the conditions for fundamentally different results than therapy for those who are forced or bribed into it (ie the subjects of most psychopath studies).

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 11 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> You should also know that there are certain therapeutic interventions to certain conditions that DO show sharp behavioural changes in short periods of time. CBT for uncomplicated anxiety, for example, and (in some studies) EMDR for PTSD. But without controlled comparative studies, it's foolish to try to draw conclusions across fields.

We weren't talking about these mental issues and I specifically said what context I meant. PTSD, for example, is completely irrelevant to what I said.

> Back to the actual thread topic. As for what works for psychopathy, my understanding is that the research on this is very limited - *especially* for psychopaths who voluntarily pursue treatment out of self-motivation. I'd say you're in essentially uncharted waters there, so if the OP really is self-motivated, it would be interesting to see the result. It's possible they'd have as much chance at change out of therapy as anyone else who actually chooses it - self-motivation lays the conditions for fundamentally different results than therapy for those who are forced or bribed into it (ie the subjects of most psychopath studies).

Most people want to change due to guilt or some other emotionally adverse reaction but since you don't get that with a psychopath I don't really see it happening. Which is exactly why most therapists don't even bother with ACTUAL psychopaths, and this is why I hold the position that I do. Not because I have something against psychotherapy in general.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 12 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> > You should also know that there are certain therapeutic interventions to certain conditions that DO show sharp behavioural changes in short periods of time. CBT for uncomplicated anxiety, for example, and (in some studies) EMDR for PTSD. But without controlled comparative studies, it's foolish to try to draw conclusions across fields.
>
> We weren't talking about these mental issues and I specifically said what context I meant. PTSD, for example, is completely irrelevant to what I said.

I suppose that depends whether you see a sharp line between 'disorders' and personality characteristics like 'openness'. I don't. But I also don't know of any studies on the talk therapies that measure responses just on those personality characteristics.


> Most people want to change due to guilt or some other emotionally adverse reaction but since you don't get that with a psychopath I don't really see it happening. Which is exactly why most therapists don't even bother with ACTUAL psychopaths, and this is why I hold the position that I do. Not because I have something against psychotherapy in general.

Well, this is precisely why I wanted to find out more about what was motivating the OP, because it didn't sound like either guilt or manipulation. But I guess our sparkling dialogue bored him away.

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 25 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Again you feign ignorance and simple-mindedness when you can't form a real argument.

The sharpness of the line depends entirely on the disorder and you KNOW this. You also can't have such studies because every person responds to therapy differently. Sure, you can possibly have an average, but it wouldn't really mean anything, and you couldn't infer anything from it one way or another.

With psychedelics however, the experience is rather similar between individuals. Unless you get a bad experience and go into a dark place. I've been in that dark place of my own psyche and it was not pretty, I have too much nasty shit in me, I'm not sure I want to try it too many times.

My own experience was violent and sadistic imagery in a cold, unnatural swamp-like place, almost devoid of color. Which, I guess, isn't that shocking. Regardless though, it made me understand myself a lot better and I no longer get the urge to be as mean as I used to.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 50 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)

> Again you feign ignorance and simple-mindedness when you can't form a real argument.

Hexi, nothing would be lost in this discussion without the lame 4chan posturing. You don't need it. It makes you annoying to talk to, like you're still 14 years old and spending all your time on the internet. When I say something you don't agree with, it's not ignorance, stupidity or pretence at either. Often it's because I know different things than you. In some cases I know more than you. I know that is difficult for you to contemplate, but it's actually true. I suspect you would get many more stimulating conversations in your life if you listened to people without the idea that they are invariably either idiots or trying to trick you.

> The sharpness of the line depends entirely on the disorder and you KNOW this.

Debatable, depending entirely on the way you see trait construction in relation to individual personality (i.e. which one nests inside the other).

> You also can't have such studies because every person responds to therapy differently. Sure, you can possibly have an average, but it wouldn't really mean anything, and you couldn't infer anything from it one way or another.

The other factor at play there is the huge variability of therapy styles and the individualisation of them by therapist personality. Still, though, you can find specific and statistically significant outcomes when measuring individuals and groups, and that is how the relative effectiveness of therapy gets studied.

I would agree, though, that drugs have a more pronounced and consistent short-term effect on the brain. This is subject to environment and personality, though, and it also means nothing about treatment for the long-term patterns of psychopathy.

(Edited 1 minute later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 20 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
I get annoyed when I need to explain the concept and implications of every single word. You keep saying completely and utterly irrelevant and inane shit. I'm also fully aware that I don't know SHIT.

So now we are getting into what *you* believe something is. Yeah, and in my ESTEEMED view you're a banana, so you can't dispute this claim because it's MY view.

Yeah and those statistics mean nothing. You don't plan a therapy based on statistics. They have no practical value whatsoever.

If I want to talk to a child, I'll go do so. I'm not going to reply to your pointless shit anymore.

Sifter replied with this 5.2 years ago, 20 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
spazbot.

Dianne joined in and replied with this 5.2 years ago, 8 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

Adrift...that was a very introspective post on your part. I am not a pyschopath, yet I have been researching a lot about psychopathy over the last few months. I know there is little a pyschopath can do, so you live with it. Most posts I read from pyschopaths make me angry, mostly because of their claims to be superior humans. Yours is not offensive which I find somewhat refreshing. I think your plan is right on... do what psychopaths do well but within the confines of not harming innocent empaths. A lady pyschopath mentioned in a post that she works in the medical field and that one would be surprised at how many doctors are psychopaths. That made sense to me. The lack of fear and no emotional response to broken bodies and blood would not affect a pyschopath as it would an empath.
I understand the physical reasons of why a pyschopath lacks empathy and basically have no fears. This is purely an intellectual response on my end. Of course, we empaths will never understand how it is for a psychopath and the reverse is the same truth.
Your post actually made me feel a bit sad for you... yet, I would never knowingly befriend a psychopath. It is my empathy that feels the sadness of someone not having the full spectrum of emotions. To me, psychopaths seem like robots. I do have a question relating to boredom as I understand it is a very uncomfortable for psychopaths. The question is: how do you handle boredom in order to avoid causing pain for others?

Ailonna joined in and replied with this 5.2 years ago, 2 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
Why were you looking up info on psychopaths, Dianne?


Adrift, are you dead? What is the question you are really asking here? I didn't see one that related to your tangent at all

utty joined in and replied with this 5.2 years ago, 1 hour later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

Hexi your first comment on this thread said "I no longer have the desire to argue on this forum so take these as you wish, I don't care."

I guess you care now.

(Edited 15 seconds later.)

Hexi replied with this 5.2 years ago, 6 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

(Citing a deleted or non-existent reply.)
True. I should have said "I no longer want to argue with random posters who come here, start an argument, leave and are never seen again". Arguing with Sifter is always entertaining, as I'm sure you can see if you read the thread.

utty replied with this 5.2 years ago, 15 hours later, 4 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

Ah I see. Looks like Adrift vacated the premise since his or her OP

itell joined in and replied with this 5.2 years ago, 20 hours later, 5 days after the original post[^] [v] #0

I can add that I am a sociopath toward men. I have no emotions toward them what so ever and would use them any way I see fit.
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