Over the past few weeks, I've read through some of the older threads. I've found myself drawn to the awareness discussions most of all. Some of them just seem to have petered out. Thought I'd start a new one...sorry if it bores the pants off anyone.
I've been able to grasp the logic, the theory... I think. It mulls over in my mind, ever-present even when I don't think of it consciously. I find it comes up in my journal, as I work towards greater self-awareness and understanding of why I am like I am.
It occured to me:
Perhaps I spend too much time trying to work out why I am like I am. In fact - What do I mean by "I am like I am"? I think... an awful lot, all the time, more thoughts than I can even recognise let alone express. So, I am someone who thinks a lot.
That does not feel right though - that does not explain who I am. And so I went through all my "strengths" and "weaknesses", defining "who I am". (I daresay plenty of people do this all the time). And I looked at the list and thought, OK, these may be true, but they still don't feel like who I am. They describe... what I do. How I think about things. What I feel. But not, "who I am".
And besides, I realised, some of these things are contradictory. Yes, I can be very caring; but I can also be quite the opposite. I can be patient and tolerant, or irritable. And so on. "I" can be different, depending on...oh, lots of factors, from whether I had enough sleep to whether I am facing my past abuser.
So, these words can not possibly be "who I am".
I closed my eyes and buried down beneath my thoughts. What I think... where do those thoughts come from? Layer upon layer of thought... and at the bottom, experience. What has happened. What I have seen, felt, heard, smelt, tasted. All past. All gone. No longer able to be experienced, only to be thought about. Cast them aside then, what is going on now, here, now, this moment, this present.
My body remained. A collection of.. flesh, blood, nerves and so on. Reclining in a chair.
Floating.
Touching everything.
Something at my centre seemed to explode... but gently, joyously... I can almost capture it again as I write this... it feels calm, comforting... I can not stop myself smiling... but it's hard to explain since to capture it requires interpretation of it, requires thought, and I can not stay there and think at the same time.
Anxiety is gone. Pain is gone. Need for...I don't know, just need somehow, is gone. All I feel is... right, somehow.
Is this who I am? Just this... human being, alive and here, just... here?
Helen, I also read all the awareness stuff. And sometimes, it has honestly given me a headache! Sometimes I think about what Dr. Robert has said about, "well, if it's not for you, it's not for you." Paraphrasing here.
I don't give a shit about whether someone is "neo-advaita" or whatever they call it.
But (big, ginormous but) sometimes I find myself thinking about the basics of it, like you seem to doing here.
Yesterday I was stopped at a red light in a city - very busy all around - and I saw and this tree in the sunlight, thinking, "can I just see the tree? CAN I just stop all this noise in my head?"
I find it so hard to just NOT think, and not listen to all the thoughts running through my brain. I'm just making more of an effort to just BE.
I don't know why I'm sharing this. If I said any of this to my husband, he would think I've gone off the deep end. Maybe I just want to talk to someone who doesn't really get it yet...
+ dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 13 hours after the original post[^][v]#16,936
Beautiful, Helen— That's it. You cannot be any possible self-definition, because "you" would always be aware of any self-definition, and so "you" would be outside of or bigger than any self-definition. You are simply knowing or awareness. Whatever you see, feel, think, or know—including the very human body you imagine is "yours"—all arises and is known prior to any labeling or judgment. And what "you" really are is that knowing or awareness. It was here when you were a child, and it is here now. Everything else has changed, but that awareness has not changed at all. That is what you are, and that is what I am: simply knowing, or awareness, or presence prior to judgement and labeling. This is very simple—too simple for some people to understand. Whatever arises—thoughts, feelings, dreams, whatever—is known immediately and without effort or trying, and that knowing IS you. The KNOWING itself is you. In other words "you" are not a thing, not an object, but a happening, which, for want of a better word, I am calling "knowing."
+ Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 13 hours after the original post[^][v]#16,937
Hi EM.
Yeah, I don't know about what Dr Robert, David, Differential, all the others say, think, feel or experience. I think it's about individual perception of experience... just putting it into words makes it different for me than it is for you, since the words I choose will not be what anyone else chooses; or if they are, they will mean something different.
What I can find when I reach down under the thoughts... it's still there, I think it's always there but it gets covered up by the shit. Not covered up exactly... just... not pushy enough to be there. Thoughts are pushy; the anxiety I feel in response to feelings can be so extreme it takes over. But that stillness, that... core of nothing that is also everything...it's still there.
"Awareness"; "awakening"; "Nirvana"; whatever... I don't care who calls it what or why. It's comforting to know it's there. To know whatever shit I am going through - goor od bad - I am not defined by it, it is not who I am it just makes me what I think.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 2 hours later, 17 hours after the original post[^][v]#16,951
Yes, it is a good feeling to notice that the true "myself" exists prior to labels and thoughts, and that, although it may be obscured sometimes, it never really goes away. There is a deep relaxation which arises with this knowledge. Enjoy it, Helen, and it will grow.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 31 minutes later, 18 hours after the original post[^][v]#16,958
Eventually, you will be done with therapy. You will know when, and will not need to be told. In the meantime, you can notice that any symptoms are happenings which arise and fade away again within the knowing presence which is the real "you," and that neither any past history nor any symptoms can define you.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 day later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#16,983
Having a bad day today, tried to get in touch with that central part again.
It's hard.
I see it as a sort of sphere, although that is not a worthy description since it suggests a clear form but it's the best I can do for now. It is not encased of bounded by anything, it's just ... there. Not black, not white... just dark but clear but with what I can only describe as wisps inside the dark. The wisps are what knows, within the awareness.
But all around are these things - the feelings of pain, hurt, loneliness, rejection, anger, frustration. Not the memories... the feelings are linked to the memories, but they are past, gone... It is the feelings that are there still, and they are getting in the way of the sphere. They block me, they stop me getting to it. They can not invade it, but they reach around it and encircle it, lay siege to it. The sphere does not fight back - the sphere just is.
As I try to sink my mind through this maelstrom, it is blocked, attacked, invaded. The feelings shout too loudly, they demand to be heard, to be acknowledged, to be looked at and recognised. Many of them have been there for years... 35 years at least. They have been fed over the course of my life, grabbing on to similar feelings that I have pushed down into these dark recesses.
I know the sphere is there. I can see it, in my mind's eye. I have felt it and a part of me knows it is still there, that I am still feeling it - no, feeling is the wrong word: I just know it.
So I guess I am a long way from being done with therapy; if Ross does his job right - if I let him do his job right! - those feelings will be heard, I will look at them, speak with them, and acknowledge them. Then they will fade... then new feelings will not have the strength... they will not block the sphere, will not stop me being with the sphere; then I will always know.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 7 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#17,011
Yes, you are not done with therapy, but it may not take as long as you imagine to get there. Sometimes an unexpected shift in focus produces a lot of healing in a brief time. That kind of shift in focus is associated with what you are calling the sphere.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 day later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#17,058
Not a sphere anymore, more just... I don't know. Something that is just there, like it's everywhere even though it isn't. Spreading, maybe. Growing in strength and finding ways through the crap with feelers.
And it's as if the feelings are quietened, pacficied by my promise to look at them in due course perhaps.
Or, not seeing Ross for a couple of weeks has enabled me to get myself back under control like I used to be. Urge to self-harm is getting worse again so it could be that.
Or, there's been no extra pressures for a couple of days allowing me to stay calm.
But... there is still a subtle change somehow. Even when I can not reach it, I still know it is there.
Most odd. Good, but odd.
> I've been able to grasp the logic, the theory... I think. It mulls over in my mind, ever-present even when I don't think of it consciously. I find it comes up in my journal, as I work towards greater self-awareness and understanding of why I am like I am.
Yes, 'you' don't and cannot work on awakening, instead the conceptual pointers work on you, so to speak. The constant questioning of your conditioned beliefs and staying with the feeling "I am" slowly eats away the hardened delusions, like CLR does in your toilet, and you start feeling 'lighter' and 'calmer' in a way difficult to describe. What helps is to keep noticing or directing attention to this field of congnizing vastness even at times that you normally call difficult, stressful, or unmanageable. When lost in thoughts or emotions, and recognizing the difficulty of loosening the grip, in a certain way you can even tell yourself to "STOP", but without additional commentary, and come back to the noticing, the knowing all that arises, in other words, fall back the to present moment—to your real self. Ask a question: "What problems do I have right now, at this very moment?", and stay with that. No need to answer, even though the mind has that tendency, and the answer will reveal itself.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 19 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#17,163
Problems definitely seem very real and, in fact, are to the extent that the identification is in place. This is not meant to trivialize dealing with difficult life situations but seeing them for what they are without judgment and clinging. We all go through challenges but there's no need to make them into 'problems' (coming from the past) or 'worries' (projecting into the future). There is literally nothing to fix and nobody to do that.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#17,164
@previous
Yeah, I get that - what's done is done, and what will be, will be.
We can only make things seem bad - or good - by the way we think about them, because all things are just as they are.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 minute later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#17,166
@previous
good point well made, young Jennifer.
But the thing to "fix" is what we think about, or feel (which comes from what we think)... problems per se.. no, just what is.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#17,168
@previous
Gosh no - that's the point. The influence [i[is[/i] youself.
Now - here I am talking theoretically. However far I may have come on this - as described above - I have difficulty accepting emotionally that what I feel is purely a result of what I think about my experiences. Including the bad ones that were caused by other people.
Because theoretically they were not bad, in and of themselves, they just were. It is the story I tell myself about what happened that causes me to see them as bad.
Some things we call bad regardless though - like abuse. It is hard to see it as anything else - or rather, to think and feel it as anything other than bad.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#17,175
What is happening is just what is happening. If you make an apparent choice, then that is again just what is happening, but you (ego) take credit for it. By playing into the drama, you simply create more drama, not actually resolving anything other than drama, which is self-feeding. To let people know that you care is to listen to them patiently, by giving them your full, undivided attention (presence), rather than 'advice' on how to fix a problem, and perhaps they will come to see that the 'problem' is really not that important.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#17,176
@previous
Hmmm. Not sure about that David. Somthing about it makes sense but... don't know.
What you say about listening - OK, basic tenets of counselling (most), but - that does not tie into my understanding of the whoe awareness thing.
But then, maybe it will in due course, I don't know.
> What is happening is just what is happening. If you make an apparent choice, then that is again just what is happening, but you (ego) take credit for it. By playing into the drama, you simply create more drama, not actually resolving anything other than drama, which is self-feeding. To let people know that you care is to listen to them patiently, by giving them your full, undivided attention (presence), rather than 'advice' on how to fix a problem, and perhaps they will come to see that the 'problem' is really not that important.
So you're like that guy that just stares at you when you start bitching.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 31 minutes later, 4 days after the original post[^][v]#17,346
Jen, that is probably true but it depends if the whole brain is gone ;)
But remember the saying: "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
Edit: I see where you're going with this and I definitely don't think therapists are idiots, but some can be perhaps less empathic than others. The mind likes to apply that label when it's not getting what it wants from the other side.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 28 minutes later, 4 days after the original post[^][v]#17,347
> "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
I like that one. It's a variation on the one I sometimes use: "Never try to wrestle with a pig. You will only end up dirty, and anyway the pig likes it."
Just as in any field of human effort, there are brilliant, amazing, empathic, dedicated therapists (I have met some), and, at the other end of the spectrum, those who are guilty of malpractice, patient abuse, and even worse. In between, we find the bulk of them. This, as I say, is nothing peculiar to psychotherapists. You would find the same spectrum in any group of humans providing a service: doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics, etc.
Jennifer (Anon E) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 4 days after the original post[^][v]#17,349
I must have missed something here. I didn't know we were talking about therapists. I thought we were talking about people who refuse to participate in conversation because they don't know what to say. But if that's what you think of therapists I'm not gonna argue.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 4 days after the original post[^][v]#17,350
Sometimes nothing comes to mind and so there's nothing to say; sometimes people just stare at you and you feel weird and uncertain what to do or say. Staying in that awkward moment without acting/reacting sometimes brings unexpected revelations.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 hours later, 5 days after the original post[^][v]#17,356
I guess if someone just stares at you, you feel compelled to say something. Sometime it's a useful something. Sometimes, it's "fuck off and quit staring at me".
But the whole mirror or "blank slate" approach... I don't agree with it. Any more than Freud did. The therapist has to think something, even if he feels nothing.
And then there's the whole thing about putting into the message sent, what we expect to receive. Staring may actually be empathic looking... but if we're not used to it, we won't experience it.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 day later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,470
I've just been reading - not with total concentration I admit - the interview in NDM again.
When I first read it, however many weeks ago when I found this site, it made no sense to me whatsoever. Well, other than some bits - Jesus's and Buddha's "teachings" being metaphors; not following "leaders" blindly; striving for something being counterproductive for example.
Now "I" see. The language I use may not be the same as Dr Robert's or anyone else's - but that is of no matter at all.
I get the whole "knowing it is there" thing. Even when I allow myself to get immersed in what is not real, I still know it's not real because I am aware it is just my thoughts and feelings, not what actually is.
Now I realise what Dr Robert said in a thread a while ago, about the issues I have with PTSD and the pain it causes me. The incident / experience does not cause me pain - I cause my own pain, I am the mistress of my suffering simply because I allow myself to be.
(Athough, whilst I understand this, it is the one thing I still struggle with most of all since the reality left by the incident is in every moment, with me in every moment - which does not make sense since it is still my thoughts and feelings in the moment which occur as that moment ends and the next begins... so I hang on to the past... but... ouch, constantly, nonetheless).
Sadly, knowing this does not make it all better all of a sudden - but, perhaps in my less negative, less self-pitying, less-blinkered-to-awarenes moments, perhaps it gives me hope.
And when I feel like drowning the clamour through drink or slicing my skin, I will try to stop and remember what "I" am, not what I think.
"I think, therefore I am" is sooooo wrong. It's back to front, if there is anything to it at all. "I am". That's all.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 4 hours later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,475
Hi, Helen—
You might also say, "I am, therefore I think." Thinking is an automatic process—something brains do in the same way that the kidneys make urine. If you observe the flow of thought, you will see the randomness—first one thought, then another—and you will also see that the thinking does not stop, except perhaps for very brief spaces between thoughts. Once that has been seen, you will understand that the flow of thoughts is known by something which is not thought. That non-thought is the "I AM," the awareness or seeing which knows thought to be thought because it is not thought. That knowingness, that seeing, that awareness of whatever arises IS you.
You—the real you—is not thought, but that emptiness in which thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. arise and are known (felt, suffered, experienced). The main impediment to understanding this, to understanding and accepting what "I really am," is that it seems too simple, too obvious. It goes unnoticed because it is always present. Usually, we notice things which move and change, not the background against which they arise. It is like a fish having been born in water, and never having been out of water, is unaware of water—does not even ever notice water. Similarly, we, being pure awareness, and having been that from birth, never notice the awareness we really are, but instead become fixated on the objects which arise in awareness: thoughts, physical sensations, etc.
But you—the real you—are not those objects. This is obvious. Those objects (thoughts, emotions, etc.) are always changing, but "you" never change. You—the awareness—was there when you were a child, and it is still here now, unchanged, and always in the center of any experience.
Knowing is what you really are, Helen, and you do not ever try to know. You cannot try to know, because knowing is you. You are not a "thing." You are knowing, awareness, seeing—call it what you will. As I say, you don't try to know, you just know. For example, if I give you a drink of water, you don't ask yourself if the water is warm or cold. You don't try to ascertain if the water is warm or cold. You just know, immediately, and without effort. That effortless awareness IS you. Let it be.
+ Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 17 minutes later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,477
I do not think the brain ever stop thinking, it just sometimes goes into subconscious thoughts (as the name suggests). You do not notice these thoughts because they lack form and identity, just like you cannot see certain spectrum of lights, or radiation. Perhaps, in the same way, whatever it is that detects thoughts doesn't detect all of them, resulting in those moments of silence. Perhaps there, in that subconscious realm, lies the nature of us, before anything is applied to it.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 9 minutes later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,478
Yep Doc, I'm with that for sure. I really do get all this - I know you've written the above many times.
I'm just describing how it's working for me... maybe it'll help someone else, maybe not. Maybe it'll just make you smile and give you something new to tell the donkeys.
After I read your post I sat in the garden and closed my eyes. I do this often...
And there is stillness there. Birds maybe. Wind rustling the leaves. Somtimes distant traffic noise.
I breathe. Just... breathe.
And I sink below the thoughts and feelings. I know there will always be thoughts and feelings - it is impossible to be otherwise, I know that. But I now understand also that these just arise. What do they mean? Hell, I don't know... but it matters not, because deep inside there is me, underneath it all.
Just... me. Quiet, calm, peaceful, serene. Just this... whatever it is, this quiet still space that is at the core - no, it is the core, it is me.
I can not sit like that forever - wherever I may be. Life calls.
But that's OK cos like I said earlier - @17,058 - it's there, always. (Well duh of course, it's me and I am here!!!)
And it's ... developing. Without me thinking about it, worrying about it, just as I give in to my thoughts and feelings in each moment, so they become less ... not sure... it's as though they have less staying power, somehow.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 7 minutes later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,480
@previous
Thanks. I figure if I were you I'd be pleased to hear this sort of story- not in an arrogant or affirming sort of way, just ... pleased.
So, is this what you call "awakening"? The process of, or something like that?
It's not easy to hold on to, consciously. Life gets in the way.
But..that feeling different is still there.
@17,477
I agree Hexi. The unconscious thoughts that we do not think about, maybe thay are what gives us our insights ... that knowledge we did not know we knew until we said it.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 39 minutes later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,481
Yes. Well it is pleasing to be seen, heard, and understood. This is a basic fact of human psychology, so there is that. But I really meant that I felt happy for you.
There is no "you" who can hold onto or fail to hold onto this understanding. All "you" are and always have been is that which knows. You are the knowing itself. You are not a thing, not an object, but the pure knowing.
Life cannot "get in the way," because what you are calling "life" IS you. In other words, "life" is known to "you" because you ARE. You are prior to any events, feelings, thoughts, perceptions—all of it. It all arises in you. In every moment whatever you see, feel, think, etc. is arising within "you"—arising as a movement within the effortless awareness which you already always are. If you relax and allow yourself to abide in that state, you will understand without any effort whatsoever.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,482
Thanks - sorry if I am not coming across right, not slept more than about 4 hours in past 48!
Will mull over your last paragraph. Maybe it's what I am sort of doing and that's why I feel different all the time... maybe not. Yeah, I see.... there's no difference between "me", "I", "Life"... Life just is, as I just am... life is my thoughts / feelings that arise from my perceptions... my "take" on what goes on, on what I experience. Not separate. Like the baby state before it realises there are separate objects...(trying to remember my Bowlby or Klein there, been a while...!).
Yes, I think that makes sense... Woah. Got that joyful, sort of weightless feeling again - big grin I can't stop!
Weird how what you say just seems to make sense now without me thinking about it, actually.
+ James (Anon G) — 4 months ago, 19 minutes later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,484
Helen - This is a real joy to read, and I have found your take on it is simple, different, and refreshing. It is very interesting to read you as you 'progress' with this, in uncomplicated or flowery terms. Please keep writing.
> "I think, therefore I am" is sooooo wrong. It's back to front, if there is anything to it at all. "I am". That's all.
Descartes' statement is often misinterpreted, as I mentioned for example in Eckhart Tolle's the Power of Now. The statement points to the capacity to think and doubt our existence, and therefore it points directly to the observer mechanism—mind or consciousness, or whatever it is that thinks or is conscious of thoughts—that enables awareness to know and experience itself, to know that "I am". But it is not meant as a proof of objective existence—body, mind, sense perceptions, or the apparent physical world. Only the proposition that "I am" (I exist) is self-evidently true and the only certainty which is known even beyond thought, but would not be possible if the mind never existed in the form we understand it. Descartes' conclusion was that it is in fact impossible to doubt one's existence (the doubting part was important), and he put it this way in his second meditation:
"But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I, too, do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all], then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who deliberately and constantly deceives me. In that case, I, too, undoubtedly exist, if he deceives me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing, so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
Aristotle also expressed it this way:
"...if one who sees is conscious that he sees, one who hears that he hears, one who walks that he walks and similarly for all the other human activities there is a faculty that is conscious of their exercise, so that whenever we perceive, we are conscious that we perceive, and whenever we think, we are conscious that we think, and to be conscious that we are perceiving or thinking is to be conscious that we exist... "
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 14 minutes later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,489
@previous
Last sentence - yes, of course. Hence I said: > "I think, therefore I am" is sooooo wrong. It's back to front, if there is anything to it at all. "I am". That's all.
Descartes... too much for me. Over-complicated the obvious. Aristotle much simpler which is my preference. Simple things for a simple person, huh?!!!
@17,484
Thanks James. If no-one minds, I shall do so. It is helpful fo me to have it in one thread like this.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 6 days after the original post[^][v]#17,492
Helen, because this has come up before in this forum and elsewhere, I thought it would be helpful to add context to that famous phrase. Not everyone is interested in this kind of philosophy and that's completely fine and understood.
Please keep sharing you observations, it is an interesting read. There is no 'me' or 'you', just simplicity itself. All the best!
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 16 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,516
SHE LET GO
She let go. Without a thought or word, she let go.
She let go of the fear. She let go of the judgments. She let go of the confluence of opinions swarming around her head. She let go of the committee of indecision within her. She let go of all the "right" reasons. Wholly and completely, without hesitation or worry, she just let go.
She didn't ask anyone for advice. She didn't read a book on how to let go. She didn't search the scriptures. She just let go. She let go of all the memories that held her back. She let go of all the anxiety that kept her from moving forward. She let go of the planning and all the calculations about how to do it just right.
She didn't promise to let go. She didn't journal about it. She didn't write the projected date date in her Day-Timer. She made no public announcement and put no ad in the paper. She didn't check the weather report or read her daily horoscope. She just let go.
She didn't analyze whether she should let go. She didn't call her friends to discuss the matter. She didn't do a five-step Spiritual Mind Treatment. She didn't call the prayer line, She didn't utter one word. She just let go.
No one was around when it happened. There was no applause or congratulations. No one thanked her or praised her. No one noticed a thing. Like a leaf falling from a tree, she just let go.
There was no effort. There was no struggle. It wasn't good and it wasn't bad. It was what it was, and it is just that.
In the space of letting go, she let it all be. A small smile came over her face. A light breeze blew through her. And the sun and the moon shone forever more.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 4 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,520
OK, so late this afternoon I am feeling the pain... the guilt... the sorrow... all that I take with me all the time because of one particular incident. It feels as though my heart is breaking, which is pretty much a daily occurrence.
Then I stop myself and think "let it go". I think "this is now. What is past, is past; what will be, will be. Let it go".
I use visual imagery.
I see the pain-laden thoughts leave me... kind of like the memories going into Dumbledore's pensieve.
I encourage them to dissipate. To go. To leave me alone.
It feels... peaceful.
But they seem to come back. Or maybe they didn't leave completely.
Maybe I just want to hang on to them as they form a part of who I think I am and I don't yet know how to just be "I".
But... it's not so bad, now.
Or I am suppressing it - since I still self-harm.
And one thing I have noticed: I am not obsessing about my thoughts (and concomitant feelings) as I was just a few days ago. I am more relaxed about, for example, the next time I see Ross. I know that my fears and anxieties about that are not real - how can they be, since the event itself has yet to happen? And I understand now that when I do see him, whatever arises will be gone. So... I can just let it happen.
Dr Robert, you know I have the ability to grasp the theoretical underpinnings, and indeed I do, to a large degree at least, I believe. But I have no idea whether what I am feeling, what I am beginning to understand, is the same as what you call "awakening" or "awareness". But that doesn't really matter anyway, does it? I don't know whether I subscribe fully to your beliefs - like being one with the Gorilla! - and whether that's because I disagree, don't "get it" yet, or just see it differently. Does that matter?
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 23 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,524
> Dr Robert, you know I have the ability to grasp the theoretical underpinnings, and indeed I do, to a large degree at least, I believe. But I have no idea whether what I am feeling, what I am beginning to understand, is the same as what you call "awakening" or "awareness". But that doesn't really matter anyway, does it? I don't know whether I subscribe fully to your beliefs - like being one with the Gorilla! - and whether that's because I disagree, don't "get it" yet, or just see it differently. Does that matter?
Dear Helen—It has nothing to do with believing anything. You should not "believe" anything I say. Take what I say as a pointer and nothing more. The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao. A pointer works in the present. If you hear it, and it moves things along, perfect. If not, no problem. Another pointer will be along soon. Forget the messenger entirely. The message is always there for she who hears.
Being human, we must suffer. This is not about avoiding suffering, but about not ADDING to it with fantasies of self-importance, and fear of "not being at all."
You got it, my dear. It's not about perfection, but about letting it be. Now just relax and be with it. In this moment, things are as they are and cannot be any different . . . . And, "I" am not a "thing," but that pristine awareness—the mirror which reflects all, but remains unchanged—in which, or on which, all of this is known.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 8 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,525
Got that big smile again now, Robert!
Just realised... I need to stop trying to understand everything. Must be the psychologist in me, always looking for what lies behind. Which is great when I'm helping people, but for myself... well, Ross has helped me with some but what I am doing here, this is different.
This isn't about understanding. This is about just being.
And holding on to that "just being" as I go about doing whatever I do.
Not losing the "I" in the whole "I am" story - since "I am" is just that, a story made about "I".
The page is just a blank piece of paper - it becomes a story only when someone writes on it.
EDIT: PS. please don't call me "my dear"... just words, I know, but my perception of their connotation is not favourable.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 2 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,533
@17,531
Yes, I know it's OK for me not to answer.
But my questions to you were simple too.
This thread, whilst providing me with a good outlet for my thoughts, may also be useful to others. Adding my age without context - as per my questions - may just complicate this.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 2 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,534
Helen—Bravo! Never "my dxxr" again. I promise. And really I should drop that rather loaded locution from my lexicon anyway. I am showing my age. So thanks for the pointer.
Be well,
Robert
Jennifer (Anon I) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,535
I guess you're part of the exclusive awakening club now, Helen. Gratz! You can forget about the rest of us peons. We're used to it and know how worthless we are. :)
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 1 minute later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,537
BTW, I put it on my facebook page—it's nothing personal—because my facebook page is about sharing stories and ideas about the various and multiple ways in which people can begin to reclaim their actual beingness while still alive. Your story is pertinent to that happening.
Jennifer (Anon I) — 4 months ago, 46 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,538
Yes, when I start out with "It's a pretty simple question" I never want them to feel pressured or else feel like I'm saying they're stupid (or afraid or whatever negative trait they will feel) either! Then when I follow it with "It's ok if you don't want to answer" I never want them to feel like I have so generously let them off the hook for being stupid (or afraid or whatever). Totally not bait.
> Yes, when I start out with "It's a pretty simple question" I never want them to feel pressured or else feel like I'm saying they're stupid either! Then when I follow it with "It's ok if you don't want to answer" I never want them to feel like I have so generously let them off the hook for being stupid. Totally not bait.
I guess you have a point. So how old are you then?
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 6 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,541
Jen, and Anon H... I just have no desire to get into these lines here.
Robert - that's OK, I understood why - just freaked me out a bit, that's all! But that's to do with me, not you.
BTW have sent a "friend" request but shall not be in the slightest offended if you decline!
And Jen - @17,535 - I don't know about that. I just feel as I do, which sometimes - and becoming more often - is different than how I used to feel.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 49 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,543
> I guess you're part of the exclusive awakening club now, Helen. Gratz! You can forget about the rest of us peons. We're used to it and know how worthless we are. :)
OK, you added the smile, but the shrink usually becomes "daddy" somehow. And now "daddy" is playing favorites. Well, Jen, it ain't that way. We are all on the same footing. No one is a favorite with me, even me. When someone—like Helen—gets a clue, it's a step forward for all of us.
> >I guess you're part of the exclusive awakening club now, Helen. Gratz! You can forget about the rest of us peons. We're used to it and know how worthless we are. :) > > OK, you added the smile, but the shrink usually becomes "daddy" somehow. And now "daddy" is playing favorites. Well, Jen, it ain't that way. We are all on the same footing. No one is a favorite with me, even me. When someone—like Helen—gets a clue, it's a step forward for all of us.
OMG. You actually acknowledged my existence. Not sure what the whole "daddy" thing is all about.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,547
@17,544
It's not a club, Jennifer, since that suggests an exclusivity that means only some people can gain entry.
We are all humans. We are all worthwhile.
We all see, think, and feel differently, that's all.
Social and criminal psychologists talk about "sub-cultures" to mean a set of people from society who act / think in very similar ways. They could as easily call them "clubs". Whilst such generalisations and labelling may be useful for theorising, it removes the individuality and is perhaps one reason why so many anti-criminal programmes are less than successful.
Individuals. Human. These are the two key words here, I think.
+ Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 3 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,599
I have to tell someone this. I have a great family and husband,and tried to show them Dr Robert's topics.It just did not effect them in the same way it did me. My husband said..."cool". And that was it. My twin brother and his wife read half and were confused.Then the 3 of my other closest friends did not respond at all. So I am thrilled I can write here!:) Helen,I read your post from Dr Roberts FB page.I reflected on it all day,and realized I relate as you described. I too get consumed by my own issues that cloud the real reality that Im not my own universe. I get to do eleptical 3 times a week at the gym. After I read your post,I got on the eleptical,turned my music up really loud,closed my eyes,and I almost am in a meditative state.I brought up my issues in my mind,which pretty much is self esteem,and was able to realize I am the only one creating the madness in my head! I went home that day feeling liberated. This sounds like it's too good to be true,but like a light switch I am comfortable with myself,and the people around me. I am getting stronger with the knowledge of all this like you. I love that you started the topic. Its cool to see how others are working to understand as well. One more thing! And this is really what I wanted to share with someone!!! Today I went to my first big social gathering in a long time. I've never left any type of social event feeling good. I always end up going home and wanting to crash. I always try so hard to say the right things,look a certain way,and pretend real hard to be smart or to understand what the person is talking about. Today,I reminded myself that "I am only thinking too hard.No one else is thinking this.We are all the same." I was able to look at every person in their eyes,listen to what they say,and completly enjoy them. Who knew figuring out that we are not Gods gift to the world,and are the same as everything in the universe would be so freeing! I love that I get to make my own movie,and help my 3 children enjoy the world for what it really is. Its not scary after all.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 2 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,600
OK, feel like I had some bizarre dream last night where this thread was totally hijacked... (Thanks for reinstating its' aim Doc).
@17,593
Sifter, it's cool, pleased you find it useful.
@previous
Molly, that is brilliant to hear! And it also inspires me greatly. Over the past week that I've been experiencing this, my life has not included any social gatherings - just the way it's been. But this coming week it will, and I have re-read your last couple of sentences and thought "wow, she is sooo right".
Self-esteem is a major issue for me, too - but I am going to hold your words in mind. Thank you.
As for family and friends - absolutely none of mine are aware of any of this. As it stands, I don't think any would get it at all! But it doesn't matter in the slightest, since this is for and about me, not them. They will be as they will be until they find out that they just are; in the meantime, I will be "I" as much as I can be....
+ Molly (Anon M) — 4 months ago, 9 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,614
Helen, I am so excited you get to experiance your new enlightened self around others! You have to let me know how it worked for you. I'll check back here.Also my name is Molly Gallo. I am on Dr Roberts FB page. I would love for you to friend me.
I am in a "just have faith in God" enviroment,so of course I have always grownup with unrealistic fears. Long story short...I had to figure out for myself a few years back what I believe,since I had put my kid in a christian based pre-school(only b/c it was affordable). He then was coming home asking questions on Jesus,heaven,etc. I first went to all the people around me who are christian,looking for the answer they seem to all have. After beating my head in a wall over and over talking to them.I had watched a show on survivors of abuse of other humans.Almost every person explained there attacker as evil,and how they survived was God gave them the strength to get out of it. I said,"This doesnt sound right." So I started researching all the mental illnesses out there.It started making sense,and it wasnt a Godly,and evil,non human thing going on. At the same time,I started researching evolution,specificly human evolution. It all came together for me through this! After that,Dr Roberts started posting all his writings on awarness",which tied it all up in a beautiful package with me included in the beauty!
So even though I had finally grasped the concept of world,and human evolution,I had nothing to help me with why I am the way I am...until now. We evolved to be thinkers.This is a good thing,but without the proper knowledge it can be tormenting.Im sooo thankful Dr Roberts helped me understand what to do with it,and how to control it. I have to keep tweeking this understanding through (for me) music and some form of exercise,or I bet I'll get lost in the illusion for sure.
One more thing Im excited about(haha) I use to see demons every night before falling asleep. This has gone away completly.My guess is,I was still tied to the fears of not believing in God,and having to answer to that when I die someday. Its gone away!!! Gone! Holy shit Im not scared anymore! Crazy!;)
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 58 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,617
Hi Molly! It's so interesting to find how different people come to this in different ways, and experience this in different ways too. Glad to hear the fear is gone, that's great!
I was thinking about God today. I was brought up going to Church every Sunday; I stopped at some point in my teens. Since then, I have gone to Church only occasionally. However, a couple of years ago I found some comfort in going. In fact, the first time, I burst into tears as soon as the first hymn started! I've found a Baptist church that is very relaxed and friendly and upbeat. Now, I don't go every Sunday, nor do I pray often; I don't read the Bible (I know enough about what is written of Jesus's life and the rest is just... what it is, I guess, certainly not a factual account!). Do I believe in "God" as Christians would describe Him?.. erm, yes, sort of but ...well, I believe more in living the right way.
Anyway, what does this have to do with my story here? Well, it's like this.
When I am in Church, I sometimes feel no different to "normal". I feel in pain, suffering, tired, sad, whatever. I could as easily be in a cafe as in Church.
But sometimes... I feel different. I feel warm, and whole, and calm. I recall this feeling first coming over me in a hospital Chapel in March 2009.. I can still remember that feeling, like someone had their arms around me, holding me, and I recall the smile that I could not suppress.
And it occurs to me that this feeling is not so very different... any different?... to the feeling I have described above. It's as though I am in touch with that core of me, the "I", that serene feeling that knows, before thought.
I say "it's as though" there, because I now need to think it through... one feeling I have found to be about knowing, essence... one about God. Are they different? Are they the same but with different names?
Does it matter? Both fill me with joy and calm. "Turn the other cheek"... is this so different to "what's past is past"? Authors or teachers write to their audience - culturally, based on the time they are in, etc. I know there is more than what we perceive here in this world; spiritualism holds a place for me (I have somewhat of a healing gift, physically, and mentally too, I am told).
Food for thought, huh? Because I also realised (as in, understood) today that having this knowing (have yet to find a word for the "awareness" or "awakening" that feels right for me - but it will come), does not stop the thinking - nor should it, even if it could. It just changes the way I think about my thoughts, and about my feelings.
The journey will never end... for every moment I perceive something new, I think something new, I learn something new.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,618
It's been a long day, today. And I've not really spoken to anyone much. This bothers me (not always) today.
So I came out to sit in the garden, away from distractions. I try a little mindfulness... I am aware of the traffic noise, and that the wind must be blowing in that direction. But I let those thoughts slide in, and slide out again. I am aware that it is cold... that the clouds obscure the moon but I can see some stars... that there's a plane up there... that I can see my breath... all these thoughts just arise, unbidden; and I notice them, and let them go.
I become aware that I have a small smile.. that's nice.. that my body feels different somehow - in fact, I am aware that I can feel my body. It's not just there, ignored: it is there. And inside is something that wants to break out, that wants me to throw my arms around the world and hold it. No, that's wrong: it's as though I want to be part of the universe, of all that I know is there - seen, heard, felt or not. And the universe (that's not the right word since it suggests something that can be named, and this can not be named) wants to hug me back.
And the really weird thing (if that wasn't weird enough) is that I can break to type, then go straight back to that feeling, that sense in fact - not feeling that comes from thought, just sensation. And I feel motivated - for the first time in over 2 years. I want to do something!
Ah yes, piano... been a while but now I want to PLAY!
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 38 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,620
The way you capitalize the words god and church makes me cringe. It's like... paying respect to an imaginary being and an institution built on lies, corruption, propaganda, ignorance, bigotry, hate and oppression. Also, how can you respect yourself when you live by rules set by someone else? Don't you know how to live without someone telling you how, why and when? Not a rant against religion, just something you should think about with deeper thought.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 19 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,621
Hi Hexi. I guess I didn't say enough in my post.
I don't live by religious "rules" or doctrine. I agree that much harm has been done in name of religion, God, Islam, whatever. Blind faith is ridiculous, I don't agree with it. But if you think that's what I am doing... then maybe you've just not understood this thread, which is fine.
Yes, I capitalise God and Church. Partly because I always have, I guess, I do it without thinking. But also because these things mean something to me, and I respect what those things are. I know there is more to what we call life than what most people think, as I say above. Maybe it's "God", maybe "God" is just a label. Frankly, it matters not... I won't stop doing it, because the meanings to me are not the same as the meanings to you.
But Hexi, I do think about these things... and then I let the thoughts go.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 13 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,623
@previous
You see things as you do, Hexi; and I will be as I am, at this moment.
Another moment in the future, what I say, and what you understand may be different.
But I will still be as I am.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,624
Dr Robert:
I've just re-read "Awakening Never Ends". And nodded at some of it, and frowned in puzzlement at some.
And in reading the last paragraph, I suddenly understand why I am the same as the gorilla.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 2 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,627
I just read "Awaking Never Ends" I hadnt read that at all. What I just learned from that is I am not awakened at all. I am still holding on to my ego,by thinking I need to work on problems,hoping I can fix it by meditation especially. I also get what you mean by not attaining anything once Awakening really is understood. Once I realize I am not "I" for real,I wont need to think to figure out how to be complete. I will just be what I'm suppose to be with no hidden agenda.
Helen,about our last conversation,I knew exactly what you meant.I grew up baptist too. You have to be in it to know what it feels like to have everyone one around you,excepting you,and feeling emotions from"God" who is there to love you unconditionally.It really does fill you up with love,and like an invisible hug.It feels so real. Even though I know it's not real,its real to a lot of people who still depend on whatever it is they believe to get them through life. They would have to want to see what else is out there.
You are doing that and know the feeling comes from something else too you said. Maybe its not a God thing after all.Well,in the God you and I were raised to believe. Even now when people on my FB say stuff like,"Praise God!" I pretend they are saying,"Praise the Universe!" That way I can feel connected to them.
Still looking forward to hearing about your outing! I hope to have more.I want to practice letting people in.I am way too drained by being a certain way,and now I want to practice being me. Cant wait.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 5 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,629
@previous
Hi Molly! I have chosen Baptist - was raised in a more orthodox type of Church. The whole God question,... well, that's still turning over in my mind. I don't believe in God in the way the Church does. But that feeling, which is as you describe... that just feels right, that's how I feel when I get that knowing, so... Over centuries, man has worshipped something other than what he can see. Maybe what we call it does not matter; how each individual understands it does not matter; because either we are, or we just think we are.
@17,625
OK Robert: the me that people see and relate to, that's the story - the thoughts and feelings and reactions based on the story. The story is what I hold on to, what I tell myself: "oh, this happened and I felt like that"; or "I am going to do such-and-such next week and I am scared". The story is what I do not let go of once I have seen that paragraph / page / chapter. I don't just remember it, I keep thinking and feeling it.
This is what humans generally do - all of us, until we figure out that it's not real, that is just a story, and that "I" am something that is at the core, that does not change, that is just aware and knowing before thought makes what "I" know a story.
The Gorilla has no story. The Gorilla just is the knowing. Same as "I" am - just the knowing.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 3 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,634
Thanks.
Yes, the feeling of connectedness to the All is real enough and can be felt at any time, but putting a name on it—"God," or whatever name—is misleading, because then we believe that the All really exists in the same way that other things with names (chair, table, fear) really exist. But "God," the All, is not an object which exists somewhere in space and time. The All is the timeless emptiness or void in which everything which seems to exist arises and has its seeming existence.
"God" is not some object or person, but absolute being prior to name and form. You can find this in Christianity and other religions, but almost all of the followers of those traditions miss it entirely. They still believe that "God" exists somewhere—in "Heaven" perhaps, and that "He" (object) loves prayers—"He" eats them for breakfast—and judges people by the sincerity of their prayers. What childish nonsense! God does not exist in that sense. That so-called "God" is just another part of the story I tell myself. This foolishness is just another case of what we are discussing here—self delusion. Of course they miss it! Even the awakened cannot imagine omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresence. The difference is that they (the awakened) know it, and do not even try. To the egoic sleepwalker, "God" is just like "me," except "perfect." Nonsense! "God" is a thought in your mind, a manifestation in your "I AM-ness." You are not in "God." "God" is in you. God the idea, I mean.
Reality is beyond words, and has nothing to do at all with traditions and beliefs.
Truth is ever-present, silent, timeless, and beyond judgment. This can be called "choiceless awareness" or "undisturbed knowing." Nothing needs to be added.
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 18 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,635
Helen, how can you claim to understand when you cling to delusions? What you are doing is repeating the words as if somehow saying it makes it so. You are nothing more than a child who gets happy and feels special when santa claus is giving him a present at the mall, you only substituted santa with god at some point and went on feeding off of a delusion of meaning and intent.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 17 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,637
@previous
Some things I believe I understand. Some things I am... coming to understand, I guess. The person my story has made me is not let go in an instant, and I do not mean to imply otherwise. And putting words to what I experience necessarily loses much of that experience.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 2 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,638
@17,634
Thanks. I have a feeling (!) that things will continue to clarify in due course, and what you say is helpful to me in realising the reality rather than the story.
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 7 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,639
@17,637
That is your biggest obstacle, you "believe". Before you are truly content with "I don't know" you will always just "believe" and the delusion of knowing will continue.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 2 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,640
Hexi—
You seem extraordinarily eager to judge and demean Helen's experience. Usually your mind seems more open that this. It there something which feels especially threatening about what Helen is working on here?
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 30 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,641
@previous
Honestly? I get the feeling that she is trying to substitute her religion with something else and just mimicking what you've said. As if parroting makes it true. If you want to start a cult, say the word and I'll leave you to it. I was under the impression that intellectual honesty was valued and that this "awakening" experience was not about filling the void with more of the same with a different wrapping.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 8 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,642
Hi Robert and Helen,
Last night after I read'Awakening Never Ends" and writing here. I wanted to reflect on why I can't figure out to let go of my ego.I completly understand everything you write Robert. So after getting off the computer,I went outside and laid under the stars. I felt scared and unsettled. It wasnt working for me,so I decided to just go to bed. I was a lot more comfortable in bed.I automaticly pictured myself hanging on a rope,with only an empty black space under me. I was telling myself to just let go. Its ok. There is nothing to be afraid of.Nothing bad is going to happen. So I let go of the rope,and I felt free of restraint,and anxiety. I did this over and over in my head,loving the feeling of letting go. I feel like I made leaps and bounds last night. Today,I get it,yet I still havent been in any situation that triggers my"ego" to surface. Im still learning,and figuring it out. I want to thank you guys. I will report back if I figure anything else out.
Helen,I hope you continue on learning too. You touched my heart.;)
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 13 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,644
@17,641
Hexi, i feel sad that you see it this way.
I could easily just parrot and make it appear as if it was real for me. But if i did that i doubt i would be able to explain my experiences and i feel quite sure that Robert would see the lie anyway. All i am doing is talking about my journey and when i use the same word Well, is that any more of a surprise than it is a problem?
I am not substituting anything. I have been open in what i have or have not believed. I have never believed in region nor in the idea of God that the Church talks about. I smiley not that daft. I have always known there is more than what i could see and my own idea of God was the best i could find. Do not mistake my use of the word 'believe' for the idea of faith- based 'belief'.
All that said- you are entitled to think what you will. But i would prefer your contribution here to be in the spirit of positive and constructive discussion rather than the negative attacking you seem to prefer.
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 14 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,645
Calling out contradictions and being intellectually honest is now attacking and negativity? I'm disappointed, in Robert the most. It was never my intention to attack you, why do you need to defend against ideas that contradict your own after what you claimed a few posts up? This is exactly the sort of thing that I find peculiar and if I'm not allowed an honest, non-insulting point of view then I see no reason for me to continue to even be here. It has become a circle-jerk website like so many others. Doc, you've lost sight of why you made this place in the first place.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,647
> Honestly? I get the feeling that she is trying to substitute her religion with something else and just mimicking what you've said. As if parroting makes it true. If you want to start a cult, say the word and I'll leave you to it. I was under the impression that intellectual honesty was valued and that this "awakening" experience was not about filling the void with more of the same with a different wrapping.
Hexi—
I have said explicitly and unequivocably—right here on this thread, in fact @17,524 —that, "It has nothing to do with believing anything. You should not "believe" anything I say. Take what I say as a pointer and nothing more." So your ideas about a "cult" are certainly misplaced. What we do here is exploration and direct experience, not belief and speculation. Nothing cult-like about it.
You have every right to believe whatever you believe, and to observe whatever it is you observe, just as Helen does. But having opinions and judgments which you hold with vehemence does not make those opinions and judgments accurate, and certainly not the "righter" for being "intenser"—the other way around possibly, I would think. It was your vehemence I was pointing to, and the judgmental put-down, Hexi. When I hear that tone, I begin to wonder who is actually speaking and to whom.
I affirm all fresh understanding, no matter which terms may be used to express it. "God" is only a word to me. Words are only words. The Tao which can be spoken is not the true Tao. Anything I say is only a pointer. A pointer has a shelf life of zero seconds. It's only alive in the now. If you hear it and something moves, the pointer worked for you. If it worked for you, it doesn't matter one whit if it worked for anyone else or not. If it did not work for you, all discussion whatsoever about the pointer, and whether someone else "got" the point or not is just hearsay and chit-chat.
As my old amigo, Bill Gersh, use to say, "You get what you get when you get it."
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 15 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,648
That sounds lovely, Molly. The idea of a non-resistant free fall may seem worrisome, but in the event, relaxation is wonderful. This is a highly intelligent understanding called "non-resistance to what is," or "seeing things as they really are." I like to call it, "choiceless awareness," or the "undisturbed knowing to which nothing needs to be added." But those are only words, only pointers. In the lap of your own relaxation, you feel for yourself that to which they point.
Knowing—simple knowing prior to evaluation and judgment—is what we really are, and, being what we actually already are, knowing is always here, front and center, without effort. You don't have to try to know. You just know. If I give you a glass of water, and you take a sip, you don't have to try to know if the water is warm or cold, you just know. That very knowing without trying IS you.
+ Jennifer (Anon N) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,649
I couldn't be bothered to read all of this but, Molly, and anyone else, why would looking up at the stars scare you? Unless you thought you might fall off the world or something... That just kinda stuck out at me. I always found looking up at the stars and looking at the vastness of the universe and knowing I have a space in it was kinda comforting. Probably the only thing I ever found comforting... sentimental...
> That is your biggest obstacle, you "believe". Before you are truly content with "I don't know" you will always just "believe" and the delusion of knowing will continue.
Yes, exactly Hexi, you put it very well! All belief continues to reinforce the 'me' story, even believing that there is such a thing as an 'awakened person' or an understanding (intellectual) of who we truly are. A mystery is just that, no matter what spin we put on it or how much we try to 'outsmart' our ignorance. What Buddha actually meant by ignorance was 'ignoring' our true nature that was always in plain sight, never not right here and now.
The quote from Gurdjieff sums it up well: "What an absolute idiot you are! I rarely come across an idiot as idiotic as you, you idiot!" (dr-robert.com)
Why be subtle about it. Let's celebrate our not knowing anything really and be content with that. What a relief it is not having to prop up the 'me' facade moment after moment. 'I know that I do not know' is the right answer.
Btw, the finger is always pointed at the one who points the finger. "Do not judge or you will be judged", said Jesus.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,652
@previous
Good point David, yet more to take on board...
I have always been a "thinker". I have always intellectuallised everything - even in therapy, still, I do this. Letting go of that is the hardest thing, for me. I am not at all good with feelings (my own, any way). Always suppressed, ignored, put away.
None of this should matter - and indeed, sometimes it doesn't, as I have described. But it all still gets in my way too much - hence why I am not done with therapy yet.
"Awareness", "awakening", "knowing"...Even though I know it can't be explained, I still try to do so.
Idiot am I indeed!
> Good point David, yet more to take on board...
No, do not take anything onboard; nothing what I or anybody says. This is about 'offloading' if anything.
> I have always been a "thinker".
There's thinking going on but 'who' believes to be the 'thinker'? Always investigate that.
Helen, I can really appreciate your looking into this because facing little 'me' takes courage and perseverance. Do not underestimate little 'me' and its cunning ability to divert your attention away from it. Keep questioning everything that smells like something 'added to yourself', even a label such as 'I am an idiot'. 'Who' say that? Little 'me', of course. Staying with the sense "I am" without commentary is the way to go...
> Honestly? I get the feeling that she is trying to substitute her religion with something else and just mimicking what you've said. As if parroting makes it true. If you want to start a cult, say the word and I'll leave you to it. I was under the impression that intellectual honesty was valued and that this "awakening" experience was not about filling the void with more of the same with a different wrapping.
> Calling out contradictions and being intellectually honest is now attacking and negativity? I'm disappointed, in Robert the most. It was never my intention to attack you, why do you need to defend against ideas that contradict your own after what you claimed a few posts up? This is exactly the sort of thing that I find peculiar and if I'm not allowed an honest, non-insulting point of view then I see no reason for me to continue to even be here. It has become a circle-jerk website like so many others. Doc, you've lost sight of why you made this place in the first place.
:D
I thought nobody else noticed this. I was kind of starting to lose hope here.
At first when I came back here I honestly thought this whole thing might be some test to see how far people can be manipulated. But it's continued for a pretty long while now.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 7 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,656
Molly - have sent you a FB friend request.
I have started trying to let this out to some friends... one I have directed to the site, one I have just started "philosophising" with. We'll see what happens. But if they get it - all well and good. If not - no matter.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 10 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,657
Hexi, I have to agree. Reading your post about her contradicting seemed like if in person,you would say,"Ah ha! See?! You don't have a clue!!" That's just how it felt when reading it. Its probably all about wording. Writing shows no emotion,so it's hard to get the right point across sometimes.
Jennifer, Thanks for asking!!! I love looking at the stars. Just now,funny enough I was watching how the Universe was created. Looking at the stars was the first clue for me that creationism was BS. I find comfort in star gazing always. Last night I was scared for other reasons. Partly because I realized I am still holding on to my ego,and partly b/c I heard creepy noises.lol
> Jennifer, Thanks for asking!!! I love looking at the stars. Just now,funny enough I was watching how the Universe was created. Looking at the stars was the first clue for me that creationism was BS. I find comfort in star gazing always. Last night I was scared for other reasons. Partly because I realized I am still holding on to my ego,and partly b/c I heard creepy noises.lol
I wouldn't say creationism is bullshit... wouldn't say it isn't either. You can have both. But, since I wasn't there I don't worry about it.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 3 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,663
Today my 3 year old had fun playing with my Iphone taking pics while I was getting my 9 month old,myself and him ready to leave the house.Later I was taking my break while they slept.I looked through all his random photos.I was in 4 or 5 of them in candid shots.I noticed I had this peaceful smile on my face. It was amazing to see that.
This is because I am "getting it" what it really means to let go of my ego,and learning to quit feeding it. I am not quite there I know,b/c I was at the gym,and kept wondering why everyone is looking at me. As much as I have learned,I am aware I still have insecurity issues.
Nobody in the world could have talked me out of the tummy tuck and boob job I have saved for early 2012,but sitting on my bed today relaxing,I am letting everything soak in. Im going through all the things that tie me to my unhappiness(my ego) and this would be one of them. I constantly look in the mirror and see all the things I need to fix. Now Im getting that there is nothing to fix. Its sinking in at a very fast pace.
I do other things that feed my ego,that I am putting a stop to.Like my wining sessions with my sister inlaws.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 5 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,667
Hi Helen,
Just dont let this one thing slip your mind,while you are still working your stuff out. The pain you hold onto is not you. Once you let go.Just let go of the pain,anxiety,or whatever you feel,you will start to feel the real you. Every pain you suffered has a reference point of when it happened to you. When you think of those reference points,that is not you,this is your other you(your ego) your feeding. Let it go. It will keep you from living. I hope this helps. Im not a therapist so it feels too bold to even write this. It helped me tremendously.
This morning I just told my husband Im letting go of all my insecurities. I didnt go in depth(yet) with how and why.But the look on his face was priceless.Our kiss this morning when he went to work had meaning to it.Not just your typical"Dammit,he wants a kiss again) :)
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 19 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,669
> The pain you hold onto is not you. . . . Every pain you suffered has a reference point of when it happened to you.
Good words. Molly. The "reference point" is a trace in memory, but memory traces are not "you." You are the awareness or space in which memory traces are known. Being simple space or awareness, you—the real you—cannot be affected or hurt by memories. Let them arise, and let them fall away again. If you do not cling to them, or resist them, or add anything to them, they are just waves in an endless ocean of being.
Why believe in being manipulated, or believe someone who says we are? Is it not the activity of believing, which is at the root of the self-delusion and egoic seeking, that makes manipulation even possible?
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 10 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,671
Molly you are incredible and very inspiring!
I do understand what you say. I think i have said something similar. 'I' have no pain or anxieties i just am. My thoughts create the pain they hang on to the memories and Helen feels and thinks and frets... It is the story that makes Helen. I know no story i am simply aware of what is.
At the moment i am struggling with pain and fear and anxiety. I am still there but Helen will not let go... No point in trying to force it. Things are as they are and will be as they will be.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,673
It's wonderfully liberating to fail or lose... no effort involved, no urge to win an argument, nothing to gain and, at the same time, much to discover...
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 18 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,675
That's great, Helen. Losing, or loosening, with a smile... there's a knowing that all is well already, as an undercurrent of the apparent misery floating on the surface, a recognition of the defense mechanism that keeps us trapped in the pendulum of perpetual clinging to what we want and resistance to what we do not want.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,678
Some pointers I found:
There is something that is already present. What is that something?
Begin with what you are before any particular thoughts, feelings, or sensations appear. That immediacy is what is being passed over.
Your imagined self is just a reoccurring practicality. It can help you with functioning in life, but not with self-knowing.
What is it, right now, that is completely untouched by your body, mind, and situation?
Thoughts and emotions are appearances in consciousness; and consciousness (sentience, state of alertness, etc) is an appearance in awareness. Return to presence. See what it is that is always in evidence. And with that seeing, your attention will continue to be on various things during the day; but you will discover that you never really move from this abiding peace and pristine spaciousness.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 20 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,679
Helen,
You said you are a visual person? Me too.I am very visual. After I read your post that you read"Awakening Never Ends". I read it straight away. From reading it I realized I hadn't been awaken,since I was still trying to comfort who I thought I was. I was bummed,b/c I could not imagine not being "me". It scared me. So as you know, I was about to sleep,and had an image of hanging on a rope. I was hanging on so hard,and I was full of anxiety. I wasn't dreaming so I new I could let go"in theory" and I would not loose anything. When I let hope,my arms were open free.I did not fall out of control. I was just free of restraint.
If you ever decide to practice letting go visually...maybe it might help??? You wont loose anything. And we will gain hearing of your experience.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 9 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,680
Dr Roberts, I read your post this morning. I went to the gym aware I would let my thoughts rise and let them fall. I let every single thought go. I did not hang on to any of them. No questioning them,just thought it,and let it go. I can't wait till this becomes second nature. One more thing. All my thoughts were self absorbed. I.HAD.NO.IDEA! I'm glad I'm learning to be my true nature.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 45 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,683
David, When I said, second nature. I mean I can't wait for this to just be without getting stuck in the illusion. People still effect me like your next sentence you wrote did...which pisses me off.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 5 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,684
But Molly, is the "i" who can't wait the ego?
Because "I" just is and has no thoughts about the future...
And will our thoughts and feelings always be affected by other people... else how will we love? maybe affected is the wrong word... it's not as if Helen has suddenly become someone different - it's just that I am knowing who I am and always have been and always will be.
The rest is just dressing... and Helen can choose her clothes with impunity because they are just dressing? No, that does not feel right...impunity is the wrong word.
I am. And how Helen is... that's never going to be perfect, never always right, never sad or angry or ill or suffering... but underneath that, I am.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 10 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,685
That's what I was asking Molly, what are you waiting for? My reply was sincere, not sarcastic. It is actually good to recognize being upset by something because that means that you are not completely identified with it.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 1 minute later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,686
Ooops.Sorry about that. David seemed judgmental. I got mad.;) Helen, I still say I. Otherwise what do we call each other and ourselves?
All egos are self absorbed. My insecurities are not me.They are who I thought I was(my ego). So when my bad thoughts keep resurfacing,I dont cling to them,I let the thought go as fast as they come. Someday,(and its what I was trying to say) is I want walk around in any situation as my true nature.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 minute later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,688
We're both just coming to understand this and pointers are helpful... it's not as if the understanding. the knowing will be all-encompassing all-at-once. Is it?
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 1 minute later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,695
David,I re read what you wrote.Too bad I read it the first time wrong,b/c the second time I understand. Acknowledging my thought process helps me understand Im not letting go just yet(or do not know how),and Im the only one keeping myself from moving forward...right????? Im trying. Im trying. Hard to change my thoughts for good.
> Ooops.Sorry about that. David seemed judgmental. I got mad.;)
No problem at all. My apologies if it came across that way. I have an unusual sense of humor and can see how some may object to it...
> All egos are self absorbed. My insecurities are not me.They are who I thought I was(my ego). So when my bad thoughts keep resurfacing,I dont cling to them,I let the thought go as fast as they come. Someday,(and its what I was trying to say) is I want walk around in any situation as my true nature.
Yes, it is helpful to notice all thoughts without buying into their content. One has to be careful though not the setup expectations for some future event to happen. All the great sages from Shankara to Buddha to Ramana Maharshi to Nisargadatta have emphasized the importance of self-inquiry, which entails hard work on oneself, without expecting any magical or fast-track enlightenment the neo-advaita way.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 6 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,697
For me, the self-awareness work I have been doing over the past few weeks has been incredibly useful - I have understood a lot more about why I am like I am.
Recently, a thought or feeling arises and I think, "OK, I know what make me think that or feel that", and then I let it go... just kind of drfits out of my head into the ether.
OK, the thought - or very similar - may come back. And sometimes, I forget to see it for what it is and I make it real. But then, I'll get a pointer or I'll just get my head out of my arse, and off it goes again.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 6 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,698
Can you be aware of this truth and still have self absorbed thoughts pop up,but knowing that they are NOT real be in the knowing? Or am I still clinging to my ego me?
Simpler put,do ones like Dr Roberts who have been awaken a long time have those thoughts,or do they go away completely?
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 15 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,706
Can you be aware of this truth and still have self absorbed thoughts pop up,but knowing that they are NOT real be in the knowing? Or am I still clinging to my ego me?
Simpler put,do ones like Dr Roberts who have been awaken a long time have those thoughts,or do they go away completely?
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 2 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,711
Your analogy worries me... and I have no desire for a dog.
But... the current bottle is just plain old Smirnoff. By the time you arrive, I'll be onto the blue label Smirnoff a nasty man gave me for my birthday. Man, friends are such hard work sometimes...!
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 minute later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,713
@previous
PMSL!!
Next time I get drunk enough to let my imagination run riot on here... remind me to switch the damned laptop off!
That was a funny evening though.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 45 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,726
Oh man! You guys are post blocking my question to Dr Robert! haha!!! Go post drink on a different forum...I'll meet ya there after I get my question. ;)
To Robert, Can you be aware of this truth and still have self absorbed thoughts pop up,but knowing that they are NOT real,still be in the knowing? Or am I still clinging to my ego me?
Simpler put,do ones like Dr Robert who have been awaken a long time have those thoughts,or do they go away completely?
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 10 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,728
Maybe everyone has all types of thoughts, but when one knows they are awake,it does not effect them in anyway. It is just a thought rising and leaving. Oh I get it! Thank you!!!! You are very helpful....heehee
> Yes, 'you' don't and cannot work on awakening, instead the conceptual pointers work on you, so to speak. The constant questioning of your conditioned beliefs and staying with the feeling "I am" slowly eats away the hardened delusions, like CLR does in your toilet, and you start feeling 'lighter' and 'calmer' in a way difficult to describe. What helps is to keep noticing or directing attention to this field of congnizing vastness even at times that you normally call difficult, stressful, or unmanageable. When lost in thoughts or emotions, and recognizing the difficulty of loosening the grip, in a certain way you can even tell yourself to "STOP", but without additional commentary, and come back to the noticing, the knowing all that arises, in other words, fall back the to present moment—to your real self. Ask a question: "What problems do I have right now, at this very moment?", and stay with that. No need to answer, even though the mind has that tendency, and the answer will reveal itself. > > All the best, Helen!
David,
Its funny how I read this before.I was not able to see it for what you meant...until now. Extremely helpful! I could cry how it keeps making sense to me. Grasping the simplicity of it is mind boggling.
Helen, You posted somewhere on how this would effect other emotions like love. When you know the real "me" you know the feelings you get are real. No other dependencies. For me,I love my kids(I thought this tonight) for the little beings they are.They are not mine,and although Im guiding them in the right directions,Im doing it all for them to have a wonderful life. I love them for them.They owe me nothing. It frees me,and it frees them up to just love.Nothing else.
Im thinking of Sherlock Holmes funny enough,but he wrote something about,if you part with your illusions,then you are just existing. I like that. I like knowing I know both sides.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,732
Robert,Helen,David,
I GOT IT! There is no denying that I got it!!!! David,I used your advice from the post right above the one Im writing.And I got it! I kept saying stop in my head,over and over as much as it takes. I dont add anything. I am existing in this very moment. Im laying in bed(except writing this real quick) and I am quite...peaceful.Im just breathing and existing. Im not meditating,dreaming nothing. I can make my mind flow in the right way. I got it!!!! Now back to bed to enjoy how good it feels to not add nonsense!!!!
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 5 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,733
Wow what a difference today!
Doc, you said @17,011
> Yes, you are not done with therapy, but it may not take as long as you imagine to get there. Sometimes an unexpected shift in focus produces a lot of healing in a brief time. That kind of shift in focus is associated with what you are calling the sphere.
SO I turn up today and... no anxiety. No thinking through what I wanted to say, fretting about whether I could say it, how he would react, none of that. I sat calmly waiting, not even needing to distract myself with a magazine or whatever. I was just me. Ross noticed the difference straight away... I tried to explain why, and I told him about this forum. He saw it as mindfulness... not the first to think that, I did myself to begin with. Doubt he will log on and read this - if you are Ross, kudos!
Anyway, I was able to say pretty much what I wanted. Ask him the questions I had, explain why, ask him about him saying "I do not need to hear about the abuse", talk about me not feeling like he's interested or cares, tell him some things... all the stuff that fear stopped me saying before. And I didn't stress about what I said or how he would respond or what he said in reply... we just talked. And laughed a bit at times too.
OK, so the "hard work" is yet to come... re-experiencing some very painful feelings and all that. But that's OK, because I can do that now.
Man I feel good!
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,734
Molly, Helen—
I am happy to hear from both of you about this. Awakening never ends. Experiences of awakening to True Nature come and go, arrive and depart. Understandings and verbal formulations come and go. Everything one sees, feels, and thinks must melt, flow, and disappear. Everything is constantly changing. Nothing—absolutely nothing—is fixed, except the knower of change. That knower, that nonjudgmental awareness, that choiceless seeing was there when you were a child, and it is there now, unchanged. It is simply pure seeing, pure knowing prior to fear, prior to desire. Just stay with it. You ARE that.
Helen—
Many people—particularly educated ones like psychologists—like to imagine that awakening to True Nature is just "mindfulness." That idea is appealing because "mindfulness" seems just an ordinary "doing" which anyone can "do" at any time. But awakening to True Nature is not an ordinary state. It is not a "state" at all, and no one can "do" awakening.
Awakening to True Nature is a complete change of being from a mis-indentification of "myself" as a frightened ego trapped in a vulnerable fleshy body, to the recognition of "myself" as the timeless awareness which knows the body, the world, and everything else. I say that it is "not ordinary" not because everyone is not already that timeless awareness, but because countless people—Ross, perhaps—live their entire lives without ever noticing it.
This is like a fish which, having been born in water, never notices the water in which it is swimming. Human beings, having been born as centers of awareness, can live entire lives never seeing that what they really are IS that awareness itself—not the objects, thoughts, feelings, etc. which arise and pass away again within that awareness, but the bare awareness itself, the knowing without effort, the choiceless awareness.
You and Molly are just at the beginning of this awakening, and some "mindfulness" is involved, no doubt, but the change is not really about mindfulness, is it? You do not have to "practice" mindfulness in order to know True Nature. If you see it, you see it without trying. Do not try to explain this to Ross. If you simply relax into your growing understanding of True Nature, that energy—the powerful seeing of True Nature—will become part of the therapy without needing any discussion.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 15 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,735
Thanks Robert... I could not explain it to him anyhow. I talked about how feelings come as a result of how we think about what has happened... not sure he agreed but that's fine, that's him.
I was just as I was eah moment of the hour. I did not think about how I was, I just was. I did not worry about what to say - well OK, nowhere near as much as I have done before, and certainly not all the time - I just let the thoughts in, and out, and away. I noticed how I felt, I noticed how I felt about him at each moment (which is now almost entirely positive), and I let it pass. The anger I felt almost 3 weeks ago... that's disappeared, and I just smile at myself - at Helen - for thinking that it was such as issue!
But as I say, what I expect to be the hard work will begin next week. That's not to say I am thinking that next week will be like this or that...it will just be as it will be next week. I'm just re-iterating that I know I need some help to let go of some of the very strong feelings that are attached to particular chapters of Helen's story.
Now to continue. And to let go of the vodka, and of the knife. What will be, will be; what is, is. Always the same and always changing.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 2 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,738
Helen—
:-)
A slight course correction: You do not need to "let go" of any feelings. I understand that idea, and from the point of view of ego which imagines that it has the power to "let go" or "do" other tasks, it makes sense. But here we are addressing another way of seeing entirely—not from the point of view of ego, but from the point of view of ever-present awareness. Ego is identified with body, and autobiography. Awareness is simply the seeing-space in which, without effort or concentration, body, autobiography, and everything else in the world is known.
In this moment, things are as they are and cannot be any different. This is always and everywhere true. Therefore, instead of imagining letting things go, I find it more helpful to see this as allowing whatever must arise to arise without resistance, and then allowing it to pass away again—as indeed it must with no effort on anyone's part. This may seem a small distinction, but it really is central to the entire understanding.
Jennifer (Anon P) — 4 months ago, 8 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,741
the problem with that,imo, is that they don't pass away again... they are stuck
but that's just my opinion... about myself... and has nothing to do with anyone else... so not important
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 52 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,742
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Helen and Molly. As Dr Robert said, stay with it. Relax into just being without latching onto a story or any content of the thought stream. 'Hard work on oneself' is a pointer and should not be confused with clear seeing, which is effortless.
Btw, is this turning into a booze fest (pass the vodka...)? As much as I enjoy a drink or two, I can tell you from experience that contemplation is nearly impossible when the brain is drowning in alcohol. No judgment, just pointing out what should be obvious to anyone serious about this. Pickled brain is just that—useless—except perhaps for lab experiments.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 15 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,744
Says who? People turn to drugs to deal with pain, addiction, or just to get high, but the experiences can only be classified as ASC (altered states of consciousness) and have nothing to do with what is being discussed here. There's no 'enlightenment pill' one can take, and if anyone is promising such a 'quick fix', they are likely selling something.
Part of the investigation is also examining one's 'latent tendencies' and addictions. This should obviously not replace therapy, if needed.
+ Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 6 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,745
When all is right with the world cause drugs makes it that way wouldn't it be easier to see what you are saying you see? You discount the subjective experience when a person has one chemical in their system but when it's another chemical (antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc) it's a valid experience?
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 5 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,747
Isn't this topic purely about the subjective experience anyway? And I haven't awakened. You can ask me about that if you want to as well. I prefer not to follow the crowd. :)
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,750
On the subject of awakening to true nature, John Troy wrote the following:
"NOW is utter simplicity. NOW is not a thought. Now is not a pointer. Now is IT. NOW is what we are. NOW is sentience. There is but ONE NOW. NOW is equally shared. It cannot be missed. Imagination is the only seeming escape. NOW is the screen these holograms of minds and bodies arise within. Now requires no intellect to BE. Schools of thought and religions are but a veneer or map. The map is not the actual geography. Peel back the veneer and fold up the map and be immediate as NOW, which you already are, now. NOW is forever. NOW is our common denominator. NOW has no form or circumference. NOW is stillness. NOW is absolute sentience, love or God and yet makes no claim of its own in its pristine unscathed silence. Who cannot confess NOW? The "I" thought appears and disappears in NOW. The "I" thought narrates the movie playing within the NOW. The "I" thought is just a thought, a letter in the alphabet that is attached to an insentient mind and body in the movie. The "I" thought can never know the NOW. The "I" thought is biology, a part of the movie. The screen is obvious when the "I" thought is as still as the seamless screen. The primacy of being is NOW, not the "I" thought or it's bifurcating mother, the mind. Allow NOW to husband the movie, marry the movie and the movie becomes a sacred reflection affirming Truth."
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,752
Today was the first day everything above written I knew to be true instead of contemplating on it. Doing all my same daily chores were not filled with chit chat from my mind. I was aware today how my "I" was not controlling my now. I did not hide from anything. I am able to be in situations that typically filled me with anxiety and new it was a lie. Others around me are existing just like me. Nothing else. I never needed to prove anything to anyone,or to myself. I just needed to be shown I am not I. I am one of the lucky beings who gets to be now. This is my second time to cry today. I can just be free. I wish I could say thank you in a way that feels worthy of the words,but I know you know.
> On the subject of awakening to true nature, John Troy wrote the following: > > "NOW is utter simplicity. NOW is not a thought. Now is not a pointer. Now is IT. NOW is what we are. NOW is sentience. There is but ONE NOW. NOW is equally shared. It cannot be missed. Imagination is the only seeming escape. NOW is the screen these holograms of minds and bodies arise within. Now requires no intellect to BE. Schools of thought and religions are but a veneer or map. The map is not the actual geography. Peel back the veneer and fold up the map and be immediate as NOW, which you already are, now. NOW is forever. NOW is our common denominator. NOW has no form or circumference. NOW is stillness. NOW is absolute sentience, love or God and yet makes no claim of its own in its pristine unscathed silence. Who cannot confess NOW? The "I" thought appears and disappears in NOW. The "I" thought narrates the movie playing within the NOW. The "I" thought is just a thought, a letter in the alphabet that is attached to an insentient mind and body in the movie. The "I" thought can never know the NOW. The "I" thought is biology, a part of the movie. The screen is obvious when the "I" thought is as still as the seamless screen. The primacy of being is NOW, not the "I" thought or it's bifurcating mother, the mind. Allow NOW to husband the movie, marry the movie and the movie becomes a sacred reflection affirming Truth."
I think what he wants to say is that there is no time there is only a clock (meaning of course that time is a concept made by men). Which is true since time is relative. Unless the neutrinos in CERN were going at a speed over the speed of light, in which case it only might be true. Don't know why he has to make such a big deal out of it though.
Answer what, Jen? This topic being about subjective experience? What else could it be about, regardless if you take the subject to be 'me' (ego) or the screen on which the story is projected? On the other hand, subject-object is a dualistic terminology, which is still valid because that's the only way the mind can operate. Is what John wrote resonating with you?
> I deleted your previous posts because I suspected the claim that you "awakened some time ago," was just more hot air. > > "Some time ago?" Awakening is only always now and never ends. Your response to Mr. Troy's message demonstrates that you really don't have a clue. > > If you want to hang out here and participate, fine, but please don't play the expert.
But I am the expert now. And I do have a clue. Who are you to decide who is awakened and who is not, anyway? To quote you:
"It has nothing to do with believing anything. You should not "believe" anything I say. Take what I say as a pointer and nothing more. The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao. A pointer works in the present. If you hear it, and it moves things along, perfect. If not, no problem. Another pointer will be along soon. Forget the messenger entirely. The message is always there for she who hears."
And now you're saying you have the authority to decide whether or not I've awakened and know what I'm talking about. It's only the message people can listen to or choose not to. I'm not forcing them to listen to me, or forcing you to listen to me. What does it matter WHO is the one saying the stuff? As long as the message makes sense. Judging by your reply I'd say you're the one who doesn't have a clue.
The reason you may think I don't have a clue is because I said it in a comprehensible and simple way. There's no need for any of that mystique and vagueness, it just leads people off the tracks. Awakening isn't anything magical or mysterious under all the layers.
I don't mean to be offensive but that's just my honest opinion.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 9 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,765
@17,762
Anon S... whatever it is you are talking about, it is not awakening, or awareness, or just being. If I rememeber correctly, your original post said something about learning awakening... which just demonstrates what Dr Robert,David and I are saying.
MOLLY - you sound so good, so pleased for you!
DAVID - I know vodka just muddies clarity. My journey is still at the beginning. Or actually, where I am now is where I am now. Where I will be tomorrow, next week, next year... will be the same place, but also different.
Dr ROBERT @17,738
Thank you for the pointer on feelings. My ego is still here, I know that. It does not control as it used to, not by any stretch, and I am pleased to say that Ross is not the only one to notice how different I am.
I've read some of my old posts on other threads today. How delusioned I was! The things I used to stress about, obsess about... Dr Robert, you really are very patient and tolerant!
> Anon S... whatever it is you are talking about, it is not awakening, or awareness, or just being. If I rememeber correctly, your original post said something about learning awakening... which just demonstrates what Dr Robert,David and I are saying. > > MOLLY - you sound so good, so pleased for you! > > DAVID - I know vodka just muddies clarity. My journey is still at the beginning. Or actually, where I am now is where I am now. Where I will be tomorrow, next week, next year... will be the same place, but also different. > > Dr ROBERT > > Thank you for the pointer on feelings. My ego is still here, I know that. It does not control as it used to, not by any stretch, and I am pleased to say that Ross is not the only one to notice how different I am. > > I've read some of my old posts on other threads today. How delusioned I was! The things I used to stress about, obsess about... Dr Robert, you really are very patient and tolerant! > > Anyway...
You can choose to listen or choose not to listen. The message remains for those who want to learn. The thing is I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'd be glad if you awakened the same way I did but I'm not trying to force anything on you.
Also you'll have to forgive me but I don't at least remember my original post saying something about learning awakening. Maybe I used it in some context I can't think of right now.
For those who want to listen:
Awakening isn't anything mysterious. It's really about letting go of everything. Except you do this in your mind.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 34 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,768
Hi, Anon S— I am not saying that I have any authority at all. I was saying that it is a bit unusual to claim having "awakened" long ago. Almost always in my experience that is an empty claim. Then, I was saying, your disparaging remark about John Troy's statement indicated to me—you have every right to disagree—that whatever "awakeness" you imagine is "yours" must be pretty shallow. Could you not appreciate John's statement for what it was?
But, hey, you have every right to say what you like, as long as it stays within the stated protocols for the site, and I will not comment further unless you ask me a direct question.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 7 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,769
Helen—
You are most welcome. And you have nothing all about which to feel embarrassed. We are all just human here. That's the point. One by one human beings awaken to the True Nature we already all always are. That True Nature is here NOW—as John Troy was pointing out—and no one has to "do" anything about it other than to notice it now.
I am glad you picked up on the point about no one being able to "let go" of anything. As we awaken, we find that there really is no one who can "do" anything, and—even more surprising in a way—nothing which needs "doing."
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 4 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,770
@17,766
I know that words cloud the issue... awareness and awakening can not be described, any more than they can be taught. This we know - Dr Robert has said it and quoted many others who have said it - and we know it.
But your last statement: > It's really about letting go of everything. Except you do this in your mind.
just does not resonate with me. In fact, it jars. But that may just be choice and understanding of words. It does not come across like that, though; it comes across that you are talking about something else and, frankly, being all "oh this is easy, you just do x and y, and bingo" in quite an "I'm an expert you're just poor ignorant souls" way.
But that may also be just about choice and understanding of words.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 15 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,778
> I'm not good enough or smart enough or just don't give a shit enough to get it.
Who is the "I" in that statement, Jennifer? Be serious. Take five minutes and ask yourself who is this person I keep calling "I." Don't blow it off as foolish. Just try it.
What is being said here is that such judgments as "not good enough" are only a habitual story you tell yourself. That story has nothing to do with the real self. Nothing to do with True Nature. That story was imposed upon you somehow, and now, thoughtlessly, you keep repeating it.
When the story is seen as a story—not "truth," but a habitual story—then what you really are, what all of us really are—NOW in this very moment—can be seen and appreciated for what it is.
> I realised something else today. > Despite being sleep-deprived... I have energy. I want to do things! > > I haven't felt like that for a long, long time.
You certainly seem to have more clarity on this, Helen. Good for you! Once you start giving up egoic preoccupations, the energy that it consumed is made available elsewhere and you feel it, others around you can sense it, and then it's a snowball effect...
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 minute later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,781
@17,779
Thanks David.
I knew I was carrying massive pain. I still am - I see that pain every day.
But... somehow, I don't feel it any more, not like I did. And I started to question that... and then stopped, because there was no need to question it, I just accepted that what has happened, has happened and now, is now.
In fact, Ross said something about me seeing to have accepted something.
And I don't fret about the future - which is Helen's reality is still going to be pain-filled, difficult, uncertain. But I know that is not now. And I know that is just the ego.
So as these thoughts come up...I say "OK thoughts, hello" and let them float off again.
No wonder I feel lighter!
> Letting go of feelings that you are supposed to allow to arise and pass away but there is nothing to let go of.
That letting go happens once you are willing to look inside and see what's happening. But you must be willing to look—and only you can do that—nobody can do that for you. Isn't it worth a try? What are you hanging onto that's so difficult to give up? Are you afraid what you may find?
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 47 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,783
@17,780
OK, Jennifer. That's fine. In that case, please do not comment any further. You have every right to not give a shit, but you do not have the right to demean and undermine a serious conversation by telling us that you don't give a shit. That's just bad manners. I will ban you if you do it again.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,796
Actually, Jennifer, you are OK by me. No personal problem there at all. You seem intelligent and I sometimes like your jokes. But what you consider "coming out to play" just doesn't work for me in this context. You ask questions and then when someone like David replies sincerely, you say you don't give a shit. That will not work for me. OK?
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,798
Look, Jennifer, don't push it. I mean this. I am not your shrink, and I do not maintain this space for your exclusive entertainment. Find somewhere else to be sarcastic, or you really will be banned.
> Thanks David. > I knew I was carrying massive pain. I still am - I see that pain every day. > But... somehow, I don't feel it any more, not like I did. And I started to question that... and then stopped, because there was no need to question it, I just accepted that what has happened, has happened and now, is now. > > In fact, Ross said something about me seeing to have accepted something. > > And I don't fret about the future - which is Helen's reality is still going to be pain-filled, difficult, uncertain. But I know that is not now. And I know that is just the ego. > > So as these thoughts come up...I say "OK thoughts, hello" and let them float off again. > No wonder I feel lighter!
Helen, All day today I was able to let thoughts drift away naturally. I had made a play date with a stranger yesterday, because I wanted too. Our kids are the same age. Ive always wanted too, but yesterday I new I had nothing to loose.
It went well. I was aware to not over analyze every detail what she was saying,and try to figure out the perfect thing to say,and what would please her the most. I messed up a few times,but I said in my head TONS of times,"let it go". At the end,she was asking me tough questions that made my insecurities come out. Then followed by I hugged her. "What the hell is wrong with me!" I thought on the ride home.
Nope! This is not me. I know what that was. I know what I need to do. One thing that helped me in this time is knowing I did not loose anything. I'm still in the now.
I just know I will be tested yet again,but am better prepared for it every time. I am not going to hide from anything.I am going to still put myself in situations that are tough,because soon it won't matter.It will become easier seeing the now.
"Why Oh why did I take the blue pill?" haha! From the Matrix. This made me laugh tonight.
JENNIFER, I just want to share with you that the link added to this is what made me first see what is going on. It sucks seeing you on here and you do not understand what we are working on. If I read "Awakening Never Ends" first, I don't think it would have sunk in the way it needed to for me. I hope this helps.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 16 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,802
One more thing I wanted to add. I never was seeking help for my insecurity issues. I thought I was the master at being what people wanted me to be. I thought it was a talent. What an ego!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I know that words cloud the issue... awareness and awakening can not be described, any more than they can be taught. This we know - Dr Robert has said it and quoted many others who have said it - and we know it. > > But your last statement: > >It's really about letting go of everything. Except you do this in your mind. > just does not resonate with me. In fact, it jars. But that may just be choice and understanding of words. It does not come across like that, though; it comes across that you are talking about something else and, frankly, being all "oh this is easy, you just do x and y, and bingo" in quite an "I'm an expert you're just poor ignorant souls" way. > But that may also be just about choice and understanding of words.
I think the reason it doesn't sound like that is because I'm pretty new to this website. Even I would be a little skeptic if someone just walked in and claimed to have understood something that most people a whole lot more time to understand. Like you said I understand it in a bit different way. Really when it comes down to it the whole thing is pretty simple. But like Dr. Robert said you should ignore the messenger and just listen to the message. I'm sorry if I appeared arrogant but maybe the reason you haven't achieved this deep a state is because you are still concerned about some insignificant things like ranks and authority. We're all on the same level.
> Hi, Anon S— I am not saying that I have any authority at all. I was saying that it is a bit unusual to claim having "awakened" long ago. Almost always in my experience that is an empty claim. Then, I was saying, your disparaging remark about John Troy's statement indicated to me—you have every right to disagree—that whatever "awakeness" you imagine is "yours" must be pretty shallow. Could you not appreciate John's statement for what it was? > > But, hey, you have every right to say what you like, as long as it stays within the stated protocols for the site, and I will not comment further unless you ask me a direct question. > > Peace.
Don't know why you're trying to belittle my experience but I guess I can live with that.
> I know that words cloud the issue... awareness and awakening can not be described, any more than they can be taught. This we know - Dr Robert has said it and quoted many others who have said it - and we know it. > > But your last statement: > >It's really about letting go of everything. Except you do this in your mind. > just does not resonate with me. In fact, it jars. But that may just be choice and understanding of words. It does not come across like that, though; it comes across that you are talking about something else and, frankly, being all "oh this is easy, you just do x and y, and bingo" in quite an "I'm an expert you're just poor ignorant souls" way. > But that may also be just about choice and understanding of words.
I think the reason it sounds like that is because I'm pretty new to this website. Even I would be a little skeptic if someone just walked in and claimed to have understood something that most people a whole lot more time to understand. Like you said I understand it in a bit different way. Really when it comes down to it the whole thing is pretty simple. But like Dr. Robert said you should ignore the messenger and just listen to the message. I'm sorry if I appeared arrogant but maybe the reason you haven't achieved this deep a state of awareness yet is because you are still concerned about some insignificant things like ranks and authority. We're all on the same level. We're all equal.
In fact I'd like to try to explain this to Jennifer a bit: @17,778
> >I'm not good enough or smart enough or just don't give a shit enough to get it. > > Who is the "I" in that statement, Jennifer? Be serious. Take five minutes and ask yourself who is this person I keep calling "I." Don't blow it off as foolish. Just try it. > > What is being said here is that such judgments as "not good enough" are only a habitual story you tell yourself. That story has nothing to do with the real self. Nothing to do with True Nature. That story was imposed upon you somehow, and now, thoughtlessly, you keep repeating it. > > When the story is seen as a story—not "truth," but a habitual story—then what you really are, what all of us really are—NOW in this very moment—can be seen and appreciated for what it is.
Jennifer, when it comes down to it we're all just a formation of really small cells. Those cells used to be different long time ago but then they realized, if you can call it that, that if they work together they survive better. So as time passed by those cells decided to work together and started creating complex systems and even living, thinking beings. So really we're a combination of those small cells that decided to make a complex system to survive better.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 25 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,805
@previous
Nope, you still just sound like someone who is talking about something totally different.
> I'm sorry if I appeared arrogant but maybe the reason you haven't achieved this deep a state is because you are still concerned about some insignificant things like ranks and authority
Yes, you do sound arrogant; it sounds as though your "deep state" is... oh I don't know, a product of your ego, some weird belief, rather than knowing - not least since awareness or awakening isn't a "deep state"!!
But, to be fair, you've made me laugh ("rank and authority"!!), which as I've only just woken up (from a night's sleep) is pretty good, thank you!
+ o_0 (Anon U) — 4 months ago, 12 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,806
> One more thing I wanted to add. I never was seeking help for my insecurity issues. I thought I was the master at being what people wanted me to be. I thought it was a talent. What an ego!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rofl i just realized that i kind of do this too!
Maybe even worse, i try to fit into expectations, but conserving a 'bit of who i am'
Sifter (Anon K) — 4 months ago, 6 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,816
Lately I've been noticing my ego at work on sustaining itself. When I'm anxious it's like seeing sand pouring into a funnel - my energy, my time into that black hole of 'am I ok? am I ok?' And I can see the 'joke' there, or the loop - that the 'I' is predicated on not being ok, is just mirroring itself - or maybe talking up its own backside. It's nice to step back and watch that, rather than being that.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 26 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,817
Do not fuck it up (I'm really writing to myself) by holding on to mindful thoughts. Once we are done existing,were done. Enjoy the beauty in things. Look at everything,and think it is amazing that you get to share this space at this time with that person,or any living thing. No need to change there thoughts, or their outwardly image,because there is nothing to change.
The air seems sweeter,rushing to the next task seems pointless. These are some of the things I am noticing now.
My family is noticing mom does not nag anymore. As they call it. Patients has come incredibly easier.
Yesterday I had a hard time thinking "I" effected some one in the way "I" did not want. Today,I see what that was. There is no need to have anyone think anything. Good or bad. It does not change the "now". I can not be effected by my mindful thoughts. I can only blind myself with them. I choose not to. Letting it go.
I am now going to enjoy my 3 year year old,and live in this moment.
> Nope, you still just sound like someone who is talking about something totally different. > > >I'm sorry if I appeared arrogant but maybe the reason you haven't achieved this deep a state is because you are still concerned about some insignificant things like ranks and authority > > Yes, you do sound arrogant; it sounds as though your "deep state" is... oh I don't know, a product of your ego, some weird belief, rather than knowing - not least since awareness or awakening isn't a "deep state"!! > > But, to be fair, you've made me laugh ("rank and authority"!!), which as I've only just woken up (from a night's sleep) is pretty good, thank you!
I didn't mean to make you laugh. Also I know why you are mocking me. All I can say is, if you simply admitted there is something you can learn from me, you would have already learned something. Look deep within you and see why it is that you're threatened by me. Maybe that's the root of why you could not reach the state I have reached. The same reason most likely explains why I was banned for saying I have awakened. But I understand that. I'd feel threatened too.
Also it's not really a question of what whoever thinks it is. It's a question of what it is and to whom.
I really am not trying to be offensive. You should really think about that.
> Lately I've been noticing my ego at work on sustaining itself. When I'm anxious it's like seeing sand pouring into a funnel - my energy, my time into that black hole of 'am I ok? am I ok?' And I can see the 'joke' there, or the loop - that the 'I' is predicated on not being ok, is just mirroring itself - or maybe talking up its own backside. It's nice to step back and watch that, rather than being that.
Sifter, This is really interesting! I wonder if this is you seeing that these are just thoughts. That you are seeing them for what they are? Just thoughts and it does not effect you as they once did.
Molly (Anon Q) — 4 months ago, 2 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,820
Had a breakthrough today. My neighbor gave me a compliment on my character. It made me feel good about myself.I didn't like the feeling of feeling she dictated my happiness.
Then I remembered I had given Robert a compliment once. He simply thanked me for my kind words.
That's what they are. Just words. For now on. I can appreciate the kindness. When I get compliments now, I will compliment on the kind words.
> Lately I've been noticing my ego at work on sustaining itself. When I'm anxious it's like seeing sand pouring into a funnel - my energy, my time into that black hole of 'am I ok? am I ok?' And I can see the 'joke' there, or the loop - that the 'I' is predicated on not being ok, is just mirroring itself - or maybe talking up its own backside. It's nice to step back and watch that, rather than being that.
That's great, Sifter! Little 'me' is never ok, ever. Nothing is, or can ever be, good enough for the poor little bugger and there is nothing you can do to satisfy it for too long. Perhaps instead of asking yourself 'am I ok?', when those moments of anxiety come, try to say/think something like 'this is ok, just fine', allowing it to be there, because who would answer your 'am I ok?' question if not the little 'me' who is obviously not ok and will undoubtedly reply: of course I'm not ok, get off my back and get me something to feel better about myself... it's an endless loop of frustration, speaking from personal experience.
If you observe little 'me' in action, even if you are still trapped in the story, you can sense a bit of separation between the observer and the act being played out. The 'observer' in this case is awareness and there is, at first a subtle, sense that what's being played out is not 'me'. Well, if I'm not the player, then where does it come from? Sometimes you even wonder how to stop it but it feels like it's glued to you or something. As long as you keep attention on it, the act slowly (sometimes quickly) dissipates; it cannot survive in the light of awareness. But it can feel painful sometimes depending how well 'glued' it is to your sense of 'me'.
Here's a small example, a fictional character called Jennifer comes in to have fun at her favorite playground, but soon gets annoyed ('pissed off' to be precise) because nobody pays the right kind of attention to her or plays her game the way she likes it. Of course she would rather not get pissed off and maybe is even annoyed with herself a bit but wants to have fun—that's what it's about. On the other hand, the pissed off feeling is not that bad either, there's a rush of adrenaline and that's nice, so she pursues that for a bit to see how long it lasts before it turns sour as it must, at which point the game is over because there's no more fun in it so she goes elsewhere to repeat the same, arguably not very successful, game plan. Here's the beef, if she could notice better that subtle whisper in her ear saying 'here comes that pissed off feeling again', perhaps it would go away. Yes/no/maybe? But this is just my silly, totally hypothetical example.
(I can already hear: suck it up, dude! - lol)
> Had a breakthrough today. My neighbor gave me a compliment on my character. It made me feel good about myself.I didn't like the feeling of feeling she dictated my happiness. > Then I remembered I had given Robert a compliment once. He simply thanked me for my kind words. > That's what they are. Just words. For now on. I can appreciate the kindness. When I get compliments now, I will compliment on the kind words.
Exactly. The words, in the end, are just that. They're just words. They do not define you.
> Do not fuck it up (I'm really writing to myself) by holding on to mindful thoughts. Once we are done existing,were done. Enjoy the beauty in things. Look at everything,and think it is amazing that you get to share this space at this time with that person,or any living thing. No need to change there thoughts, or their outwardly image,because there is nothing to change. > > The air seems sweeter,rushing to the next task seems pointless. These are some of the things I am noticing now. > > My family is noticing mom does not nag anymore. As they call it. Patients has come incredibly easier. > > Yesterday I had a hard time thinking "I" effected some one in the way "I" did not want. Today,I see what that was. There is no need to have anyone think anything. Good or bad. It does not change the "now". I can not be effected by my mindful thoughts. I can only blind myself with them. I choose not to. Letting it go. > > I am now going to enjoy my 3 year year old,and live in this moment.
This is really good, Molly. Isn't it amazing to be alive?! Just being here, breathing, seeing things, feelings appearing, people rushing about like headless chickens, dogs peeing on flowers, stinky car exhausts, leafs turning color, pain in the lower back is just there where it's been, but it's not 'my pain', the smell of rain washing down a dirty street, neighbors fighting about who is right and who is the loser, coffee tasting unusually good this morning, friendly faces in the elevator and a man who forgot to use deodorant (oh no!), 3 days old socks that don't seem to wick the sweat too well, bright light of the computer screen, footsteps approaching, manager tapping on shoulder... end of a daydream?... no, LIFE living itself! This is it, so enjoy while it lasts!
> Had a breakthrough today. My neighbor gave me a compliment on my character. It made me feel good about myself.I didn't like the feeling of feeling she dictated my happiness. > Then I remembered I had given Robert a compliment once. He simply thanked me for my kind words. > That's what they are. Just words. For now on. I can appreciate the kindness. When I get compliments now, I will compliment on the kind words.
Acknowledging a compliment is fine and it makes human interaction 'warmer', but as soon as it is turned into something to add to oneself, then it's just feeding the hungry beast (ego). Doing without any expectation of reciprocation, gratitude, or payback is liberating. Words can be seen as just words or as a meaning, or intention, behind the words. Either way, it carries no charge if it is not latched onto. And please, continue to compliment Dr Robert :)
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 35 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,826
@17,818
Hello Anon.
I'm not mocking you, and I certainly don't find you offensive. You are as you are, and you - or your ego - believes and feels what it does. That's fine.
But to talk about being awakened; and also to talk about me (or anyone) "learning" from you, being "threatened" by you, or that I "should" think about something you say...well, that just illustrates my point.
Namely, that whatever state you are in, it is not the state I, Molly, David, Dr Robert at all are in, or are talking about.
> > Do not fuck it up (I'm really writing to myself) by holding on to mindful thoughts. Once we are done existing,were done. Enjoy the beauty in things. Look at everything,and think it is amazing that you get to share this space at this time with that person,or any living thing. No need to change there thoughts, or their outwardly image,because there is nothing to change. > > > > The air seems sweeter,rushing to the next task seems pointless. These are some of the things I am noticing now. > > > > My family is noticing mom does not nag anymore. As they call it. Patients has come incredibly easier. > > > > Yesterday I had a hard time thinking "I" effected some one in the way "I" did not want. Today,I see what that was. There is no need to have anyone think anything. Good or bad. It does not change the "now". I can not be effected by my mindful thoughts. I can only blind myself with them. I choose not to. Letting it go. > > > > I am now going to enjoy my 3 year year old,and live in this moment. > > > This is really good, Molly. Isn't it amazing to be alive?! Just being here, breathing, seeing things, feelings appearing, people rushing about like headless chickens, dogs peeing on flowers, stinky car exhausts, leafs turning color, pain in the lower back is just there where it's been, but it's not 'my pain', the smell of rain washing down a dirty street, neighbors fighting about who is right and who is the loser, coffee tasting unusually good this morning, friendly faces in the elevator and a man who forgot to use deodorant (oh no!), 3 days old socks that don't seem to wick the sweat too well, bright light of the computer screen, footsteps approaching, manager tapping on shoulder... end of a daydream?... no, LIFE living itself! This is it, so enjoy while it lasts!
David, this is something I will keep with me. Worth clinging onto for awhile. Once I finally buy ink for my printer,this is one of the things I'm printing out,along with all the awareness posts for my children to read when they are older. David,do you have kids? My almost 6 year old is struggling with his thoughts as well. He gets fixated on things and can't let it go. I tell him to say,"yea yea. Whatever." to his little person telling him naughty things in his head. Do you have any advice on raising young kids to have awareness? Advice from anyone is appreciated.
Molly (Anon Q) — 4 months ago, 40 seconds later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,833
David. Molly Gallo is my name. I'm one of Roberts FB friends. Not sure if my question to you is veering off the subject at hand. You can send via FB. Your thoughts are very warming.
> David, this is something I will keep with me. Worth clinging onto for awhile. Once I finally buy ink for my printer,this is one of the things I'm printing out,along with all the awareness posts for my children to read when they are older. David,do you have kids? My almost 6 year old is struggling with his thoughts as well. He gets fixated on things and can't let it go. I tell him to say,"yea yea. Whatever." to his little person telling him naughty things in his head. Do you have any advice on raising young kids to have awareness? Advice from anyone is appreciated.
Thanks, Molly, that's sweet. Definitely not worth holding onto what I wrote, especially the parts about socks and deodorant (lol). Wish I had kids because they would keep me out of trouble (i.e. head stuck in my posterior). I think kids are great spiritual teachers and so is helping others—in fact, that is the best thing you can do for yourself! Wish I could give you some helpful advice on this, but whatever I could say pales (and that's a weak word) in comparison with what you already KNOW and can pass onto them.
> ... and everything, all of it, that David says must be doubted and investigated :) > > Belief and doubt are two names for the same avoidance of now. Now simply is, requiring no belief at all.
Good point! Doubt, as in skepticism, is ego, thanks for the correction. I should have said don't believe what David says...
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 5 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,837
Belief, doubt, learning... all these are about ego, surely?
You just are; and if you don't know that you are, you still are.
"It's not that i forget who i am, it's that i don't let myself remember". (See FB status!).
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 22 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,838
Yes, that's true, basically any activity implicitly presumes a 'doer'. The english language is highly self-referential in the way it always puts the subject in the driver's seat. To avoid that, which is really not necessary but some find it useful, one has to use passive sentences and that sounds awkward. Some other languages like japanese, for example, omit the driver and focus on the activity itself, which keeps the focus away from constantly referencing the false self and I think that is helpful, less dualistic.
What is FB status?
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 12 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,839
Sorry - FaceBook.
I have no problem with our language. After all, I still have an ego - I still think, and feel, I still do things, make mistakes, love, laugh and all that.
It's just that the ego is not in charge like it was. No, that's not right... ego (id and superego if that's your bag) still drive my actions etc. It's just that I now know the illusory nature of the actions and thoughts and feelings.
Which is what allows me to notice them, do things, but not let them drive *me* anymore.
And always, underneath what I do in my life, is the knowledge of my existence... and that brings peace, calm, more harmony, stillness... it brings what words can not describe, since by decribing I negate its essence.
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,840
Helen,
Hearing what you wrote right above my post is the best thing I have seen all day. You write what you are experiencing. I can not believe how far your post have come.
Your words...."Which is what allows me to notice them, do things, but not let them drive *me* anymore."
Once you enter difficult situations like next week. You know you might feel it,see it,feel all the bad thoughts. But they will not and can not rule you anymore! This is what you said.I just said it in a different way. lol
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,842
> And always, underneath what I do in my life, is the knowledge of my existence... and that brings peace, calm, more harmony, stillness... it brings what words can not describe, since by decribing I negate its essence.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 36 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,843
I already answered that question you all keep referring to on another thread but you didn't like my answer. Dr. Robert, I'm not sure why you put that 'I am not your shrink' part in there except to maybe let me know that you really don't give a shit about me and my problems (That's fine. You're not the first and certainly won't be the last.) or because you think that I thought you were my shrink which is just crazy. I might be a little lost but I'm not that far gone. Also, I asked David a question. He didn't answer me and when he did HE asked ME if I'm even interested in the topic. I didn't just start asking him questions just so I can say I don't give a shit. I know I'm wasting my breath/time/energy saying this though and you're gonna get upset because I'm not following the topic. Fine, whatever. I got nothing more to say.
+ Sharon A (Anon X) — 4 months ago, 21 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,844
Hello Dr. Robert,
I just read your post on FB and wanted to chime in. I have had the same experience you described, although due to vastly different circumstances (I was a 9-year-old child and my father nearly killed me in a drunken rage). Even today I have few words to describe what happened, although I will say I was never the same. I found the change painful then due to my circumstances; but now so many years later I am very grateful it happened. That silent undercurrent of peace runs through even the most difficult circumstances; and while I sometimes get caught in the surface drama, I am able to somehow step back and observe myself (ego) trying to create all sorts of drama where none exists...Perhaps I can message you privately if you wish and describe the experience in more detail. There are some parts I have never fully understood...God Bless. :-)
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,845
Hi, Sharon—
The account I posted on facebook is not mine, but Helen's. You might enjoy reading this thread from the top. It has a lot of truth and soul in it—Helen, Molly, David, and others are telling it like it is. If you want to talk about your experience, please do it here where it can be shared among interested people. If you like, you can open a new thread with a different title.
And there's something else to underline this...
I emailed the link to my therapist. OK, so I still don't think he'll read this - or get it - but that's not the point.
He might. And he might look at other threads. And I've posted things elsewhere on here that he might thus read, and I always thought I would die of embarrassment if he knew I had those thoughts.
But it just does not matter. It really doesn't. Whatever he does or does not read, think, feel, whatever... it does not matter. It will be as it will be. It's fine.
And it's so liberating to know this!
Jennifer, it's not that nobody gives a shit, as you put it. I do, and my guess would be that Dr Robert does - and others too, like Sifter and Cassandra.
It's you who won't believe this; and until you begin at least to realise and accept that it's possible that someone might atually care about you, you will stay stuck where you are.
So come get that vodka!
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 17 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,848
We are leaving in the a.m to enjoy camping for 4 days. One thing I hope to see when I can check back here is Sharon's story and understanding.
Today was incredible! Oh to be alive is all I wanted and all I needed. Nothing to add,nothing to take away. Peace. :)
Molly (Anon L) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,851
Jennifer,
I did not get pass the 11th grade in high school,but I quit trying to learn years before that. People have treated me like an air head my whole life,because that is how I treated myself. You are not what you tell your self either.
Take it! Take what Helen,Robert,David,or any one on here is trying to show you. Read it all. Put what you think about you in the corner for now.
Then you will need to ask many questions,and Dr Robert will be able to help point you to the answers you need. You will start seeing what we already know about you. You are just like us. I am just like you. No better, no worse.
Please go check out how extraordinary you really are.
+ Claire (Anon Z-1) — 4 months ago, 7 hours later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,854
Reading these threads have been really helping me. Iv experienced a lot of abuse in my life and so suffered from mental health problems. I think the worst part of my abuse was remembering being molested as a child, and these memories have been resurfacing just in this last year. The biggest problem for me when i first came to acknowledge what happened to me as a child, was at first i had this strong sense and feeling that i was in some way damaged or tainted. But now i come to realize more and more that i am not. Not when you talk about awareness. To me i realize now that the things i went through are not who i am, they were things that happened and now they are only really past events and how i perceive them. And as this perception happens in thoughts and feelings then they really are no part of what i truly am. And this has led me to believe im just as pristine, or new (if that makes sense ?) as the day i was born. This feels very liberating for me. i still experience grief and anger from time to time but im aware there natural thoughts and feelings and they dont take over my life. They arise, i acknowledge them and then let them go. I dont need to be scared of them as there not what the real me is. And its just a part of being human.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 18 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,860
Another way to see it
the pain comes but then goes. It is not anchored into me anymore. It's ok to feel the pain. But it no longer defines me. It just is as it is.
And although i may have tears- they are for the perfect beauty and calm and peace that is *me*.
> Hello Anon. > I'm not mocking you, and I certainly don't find you offensive. You are as you are, and you - or your ego - believes and feels what it does. That's fine. > But to talk about being awakened; and also to talk about me (or anyone) "learning" from you, being "threatened" by you, or that I "should" think about something you say...well, that just illustrates my point. > Namely, that whatever state you are in, it is not the state I, Molly, David, Dr Robert at all are in, or are talking about. > > But I wish you all the best.
Your mockery in the earlier post was evident.
You are saying that you have nothing to learn from me. But I think I have much to learn from you! Your ego is what tells you not to listen to me, not to lower yourself to learn from "someone like me" or even think about what I say. I believe the state you are in is not real awakening. It is merely a sensation of false enlightenment that roots from wanting to be a part of something. Wanting to belong. Wanting to live with less pain. Or simply from wanting to find something interesting and new.
That is precisely why you are so enthusiastically sharing your experiences here; imagine if Dr. Robert told you that everything you do is in vain. You would simply quit, be depressed for a small or a long while and move on.
> > Hello Anon. > > I'm not mocking you, and I certainly don't find you offensive. You are as you are, and you - or your ego - believes and feels what it does. That's fine. > > But to talk about being awakened; and also to talk about me (or anyone) "learning" from you, being "threatened" by you, or that I "should" think about something you say...well, that just illustrates my point. > > Namely, that whatever state you are in, it is not the state I, Molly, David, Dr Robert at all are in, or are talking about. > > > > But I wish you all the best. > Your mockery in the earlier post was evident. > You are saying that you have nothing to learn from me. But I think I have much to learn from you! Your ego is what tells you not to listen to me, not to lower yourself to learn from "someone like me" or even think about what I say. I believe the state you are in is not real awakening. It is merely a sensation of false enlightenment that roots from wanting to be a part of something. Wanting to belong. Wanting to live with less pain. Or simply from wanting to find something interesting and new. > That is precisely why you are so enthusiastically sharing your experiences here; imagine if Dr. Robert told you that everything you do is in vain. You would simply quit, be depressed for a small or a long while and move on.
I want to belong and be in less pain. Don't really care if that's right or wrong. Not gonna kiss ass and jump on whatever bandwagon is available to get there. Not gonna believe shit that's just not true or is some "great mystery". Drugs seems to take care of things better then anything else... but what's your offer?
(Sorry Dr Robert. I am not so easy to get rid of. Might have to just ban me.)
> Jennifer, > > I did not get pass the 11th grade in high school,but I quit trying to learn years before that. People have treated me like an air head my whole life,because that is how I treated myself. You are not what you tell your self either.
If how you thought of yourself was not as good as what others thought of you wouldn't they have treated you better then you treated yourself?
> > > Hello Anon. > > > I'm not mocking you, and I certainly don't find you offensive. You are as you are, and you - or your ego - believes and feels what it does. That's fine. > > > But to talk about being awakened; and also to talk about me (or anyone) "learning" from you, being "threatened" by you, or that I "should" think about something you say...well, that just illustrates my point. > > > Namely, that whatever state you are in, it is not the state I, Molly, David, Dr Robert at all are in, or are talking about. > > > > > > But I wish you all the best. > > Your mockery in the earlier post was evident. > > You are saying that you have nothing to learn from me. But I think I have much to learn from you! Your ego is what tells you not to listen to me, not to lower yourself to learn from "someone like me" or even think about what I say. I believe the state you are in is not real awakening. It is merely a sensation of false enlightenment that roots from wanting to be a part of something. Wanting to belong. Wanting to live with less pain. Or simply from wanting to find something interesting and new. > > That is precisely why you are so enthusiastically sharing your experiences here; imagine if Dr. Robert told you that everything you do is in vain. You would simply quit, be depressed for a small or a long while and move on. > > I want to belong and be in less pain. Don't really care if that's right or wrong. Not gonna kiss ass and jump on whatever bandwagon is available to get there. Not gonna believe shit that's just not true or is some "great mystery". Drugs seems to take care of things better then anything else... but what's your offer? > (Sorry Dr Robert. I am not so easy to get rid of. Might have to just ban me.)
I'm sorry Jennifer but I can't help you. Frankly, I think the people here convinced themselves they could help you and tried to. That usually makes people feel good about themselves as well as give them this sense of superiority. When they realized they couldn't help they got pissed off by you. That's the way it works. If you can't make them feel good about themselves they will get frustrated. And since people are pretty egoistic they usually decide the fault isn't in them. So in this case it's your fault you won't be helped. The help itself is perfect.
> Yes, what do you have to offer to this discussion, Anon Z? So far what has been on display from your end does not appear terribly 'enlightening'... > > Dr Robert, pls consider not to ban Jennifer. She speaks her mind and that's valid.
Like I said, awakening is not something mysterious or magical. What I say sounds simple because it is simple. People who are trying to search for a magical wonderland will be disappointed.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 4 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,867
Good thing I didn't ask for your help, then. (What a crappy thing to say btw. My own fault I am unhappy but powerless to do anything about it because if I knew what to do I would have done it by now, right?)
But what does any of that have to do with your enlightenment that is different from the rest here?
> Good thing I didn't ask for your help, then. > But what does any of that have to do with your enlightenment that is different from the rest here?
I merely answered your question: what's your offer? My answer was I don't have one. It was only an honest answer.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 2 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,869
God! Then I must spell it out plainly. What is the difference in what you "believe" and what they "believe". I'm kinda getting the feeling that it's probably nothing compared because you are avoiding trying to explain.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 7 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,870
@17,866
Anon, who ever said it was magical or mysterious??
You seem very keen to cast my experience into a bin just because i do not find value in what you say. I am aware of what i am and my ego knows this too.
You are insulting all of us here and unless anything you say has any meaning or pointers for me i think i shall just let you be.
Your ego may or may not be able to cope with that but i and mine can right now.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 6 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,871
Jen i do not believe anything, i simply know what i am and that has had a huge impact.
You do what is best for you. You will find your path to being whole and happy and at peace in your own way. You listen and consider what you hear and you can do no more.
But the offer of a visit and the liking and care i have for you is genuine.
Xx
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 6 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,873
Price to whom Jen? I want nothing from you. I offer friendship with no strings. Yes that really can happen and yes it can happen to you as much as to anyone else.
> Anon, who ever said it was magical or mysterious?? > You seem very keen to cast my experience into a bin just because i do not find value in what you say. I am aware of what i am and my ego knows this too. > You are insulting all of us here and unless anything you say has any meaning or pointers for me i think i shall just let you be. > Your ego may or may not be able to cope with that but i and mine can right now.
You just said that you certainly don't find me offensive. I didn't take it for granted because I already knew you were denying it. But you should realize you are the one keen on casting my experience into a bin just because I have a different view on awakening. I am merely saying the same thing back. Not in hopes of getting sadistic joy out of it but making you understand what it is you are doing. What it is that threatens you in my experiences.
My ego can cope with my faults and I can recognize them. I am not sure if yours can. I have no intention of inserting any ideas into your brain. Whether you want to listen or not is entirely up to you.
You take pride in taking pride in nothing.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,875
Yeah thats what everyone says. Especially men. Nothing in life is free. Nothing. (Unless you don't want it then you got tons of people waiting in line to give it to you.) I don't care if I'm supposed to "be nice" thats the way it is.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 9 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,880
@17,875
Friendship - real friendship - does not cost.
And I do not ask you to "be nice" - never have, I think.
I just suggest you consider the options, that's all.
xx
> Anon Z (or Hexi?), what you are attempting here is completely pointless and you should know better than that (imho). Peace. 10-4
I take offense to that. I have *never* posted with any other handle than Hexi, and never will. (No, i don't really take offense, it's just to make a point). I make my point and defend my view if need be and people either agree with me or they don't, i have no desire to convince anyone of anything. Arguing about something as subjective and abstract as this topic is an exercise in futility.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 11 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,882
You didn't tell me to be nice. I guess I was talking to myself.
What options? Sorry I am so beyond wasted right now I don't know how I'm even typing this. I'm not following along very well. Maybe I should come back at a different time.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 8 minutes later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,884
But wait Helen you said you don't believe anything you just know who you are. Isn't that knowing what you believe anyway? You believe that's what you are?
It might be different then what you believed before but its still what you believe you are. Not like you have scientific evidence.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 week after the original post[^][v]#17,885
@previous
Hmm. I see what you're saying. And objectively, scientifically... yeah sure, I may only believe that I know what I am. I can't "prove" it to you.
This is what can not be explained, or "proved". This is subjective. My description of my experience leads Dr Robert to say I am "awakening to True Nature"; to him and others, it appears that I know what I am just as he knows what he is. Who is to say that is right, or true?
But I do know, or understand, what I am. I do realise that "i" am just the awareness, the knowing, onto which and from which the story plays, the ego becomes ego... I don't "believe" this, I just know it to be true.
This evening I have sat and watched a film. So what? So in the past 2 years and 8 months, I have not been able to just sit and watch... I have always had to be doing something else, distracting my mind with computer games or a book or somesuch.
Now, I can just do what I am doing.... be who and what I am.
That also is not belief. It just *is*.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 27 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#17,887
Jennifer- Good question, but you will not like my answer, I imagine. In a way, you are right. Everyone is just being what they are, and really cannot be any different. That is why I say "in this moment, things are as they are, and cannot be any different." But for many people, what "they are" is really just thought—a constant story they tell themselves. And in this story, "I" am a body and a brain plus an autobiography. That is "Me," according to this story. A physical body with its needs, feelings and emotions, a brain with its thoughts, desires, fears, and memories, and a story I tell myself. The body was born at a certain time, and will die. And when it dies, "I" will die. In the meantime, between birth and death, I will suffer a lot. I will suffer all the bad things that were done to me, and all the bad things that remain to happen. I will suffer being ill. I will suffer not getting the things I desire. I will suffer cravings for sex, drugs, and other experiences. I will be afraid, and try to hide my fear. I will wish for love, but will not find it. Right?
But that is not the only experience of being. That "story I tell myself" is one way to live—a very common one. But there is another way, which is to notice that behind the story, behind the emotions, thoughts, fears and desires is a presence which is aware of the body and the autobiography, but not identified with it. That presence is what I call awareness or true nature. That awareness was there when you were a child, before any of the programming and bad stuff happened, and it is here now, unchanged. That awareness is like the empty blue sky. Clouds come and go (thoughts come and go, events come an go, feelings come and go, etc.), but the sky is always there, unchanged, permanent, and pristine. And, when awake, I know that I am not the feelings, thoughts, and events, but the presence in which they arise and pass away again. In other words, I do not have a life. I am life. And that makes all the difference. And that is what Helen, and others, are in the process of realizing. When awake like that, a disturbing thought does not seem solid and difficult, but is just another cloud which I know will pass while I, the sky, remain.
To use another metaphor: many people become totally involved in their thoughts, emotions, desires, and fears, but I call that the "movie." I am not that, not the movie, but the empty screen upon which the movie is projected. The movie changes all the time, but the screen remains unchanged, pristine. You might like to read a little piece I wrote about the movie and the screen: http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/awakenedview.html
If you get this, fine. If you don't get it, that's OK too. But—and this is the part I guess you will not like—you will never understand this with logic or by asking one question after another. That presence is here now, as close as your beating heart—closer in fact. That presence IS you. But you cannot be convinced of that by any words, because it is deeper and more meaningful than any words. In fact, it is the emptiness and silence which hears and understands words. Words can alert you to the idea that you ARE that, and not what you think you are, but words will not show it to you. You have to notice it for yourself in silence. I hope this helps.
+ Sifter (Anon Z-5) — 4 months ago, 4 hours later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#17,894
No, I wasn't. I'm responding to Anon's contention that people 'thought they could help you, realized they couldn't and then got pissed off with you.' Anon is talking out of Anon's experience, and/or making it up, and what he's saying doesn't coincide with what I've felt in knowing you here.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 4 hours later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#17,897
I am never getting that high again. It's just not fair that after so long tolerance goes down but you still get the same dope sick. What happened to this shit being fun?!?
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 1 hour later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#17,898
Hello, All—
Each time a thread about "Awakening" is created, it goes on for a long time with many posts. Eventually it becomes hijacked in various ways, and subjected to trollish behaviors as well. In order to forestall that, I have created a new facebook group called Awaken to True Nature. If this topic interests you, please feel free to request membership.
> Friendship - real friendship - does not cost. > And I do not ask you to "be nice" - never have, I think. > I just suggest you consider the options, that's all. > xx
Sometimes you have to ask that.
Jennifer (Anon R) — 4 months ago, 33 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#17,902
I don't know how to see myself as a screen and I don't know how to see my experiences, feelings, thoughts, as not real. I do know that events in my life change and I am still Jennifer-in Jennifer's body. I guess you can say when I tell myself I am bad and I feel like I'm 5 that is the movie but I can already step away from that. I have to be able to do that but I can't say it's not real. It may not be real over here but it is real for the 5 year old. I can see her feeling bad and afraid of being punished. I know nobody wants to talk about this stuff but I can't understand what you all are talking about because its so similar and so different then what I already do.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#17,906
Anon Z—
You may not be a "troll" by the exact definition of that term, but your posts here had nothing to do at all with the topic. All you wanted to do was brag about your imagined "awakening." You contributed nothing valuable, and managed to insult and demean the real experiences of those who were contributing. You did us all a favor, however. The facebook group will be a better venue for this conversation anyway.
> Anon Z— > > You may not be a "troll" by the exact definition of that term, but your posts here had nothing to do at all with the topic. All you wanted to do was brag about your imagined "awakening." You contributed nothing valuable, and managed to insult and demean the real experiences of those who were contributing. You did us all a favor, however. The facebook group will be a better venue for this conversation anyway.
Robert,
Your awakening is the only thing imagined. I contributed much to this topic but you personally did not listen. Maybe someone did, I do not know, someone who understood something about awakening and didn't simply follow someone else's message like a mindless zombie. You want to brag about your own experiences while belittling others'. You insult my experience in the same post where you cry about me insulting your experience. You banned me for saying I have awakened. Do you really not see what you are doing?
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 13 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#17,922
@previous
Why so? Don't forget, I'm not even on the same continent as you, let alone the same country!!
But, if this is the case and if you would like to chat one-on-one rather than in open forum here, what about email?
> > > How can he insult an experience you never talked about? > > Quite easily it seems. > > You're to angry and defensive to "be at one with the world."
No I'm fine.
Ignore what I've said if you will. Like I've said before and will say again, the message will be there for those who wish to hear.
> Right on, Jennifer. That really is the acid test.
By saying that you have committed the same act you blame I have committed.
It seems to me like this forum (or group) has become somewhat isolated. There's always a consensus on what is right and what is wrong and you never objectify what you yourselves say. When someone's ideals cross yours you practice social rejection. Like now, for instance. Not that this is the first time. If someone used to come here to ask questions about sociopathy the same occurred. Or whenever someone said something about religions.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 4 hours later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,045
@18,039
Look Anon Z-11, you have yourself completely deluded at this point, and seem lost. You are not being "rejected," your statements are being seen for what they are, bullshit. Your claim to be "awakened" is bullshit, and your explanations of "awakening" are bullshit. For example, you said this:
> Jennifer, when it comes down to it we're all just a formation of really small cells. Those cells used to be different long time ago but then they realized, if you can call it that, that if they work together they survive better. So as time passed by those cells decided to work together and started creating complex systems and even living, thinking beings. So really we're a combination of those small cells that decided to make a complex system to survive better.
Really? Those little cells all "decided?" Come on!
It's like this, big claims ("I awakened long ago") require big proof, and you have not shown any. In fact, although you write pretty well, you don't come across as someone who thinks deeply at all.
You have every right to disagree, and I am sure you will. But stop pulling the wool over your own eyes, Z, you are not "awakened" at all. You are lying to yourself.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 26 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,046
Do you really think this person is going to hear anything we say? Such intensity of delusion or bs feeds itself - perhaps the ego is too weak to stand inspection.
Or perhaps he is talking crap on purpose just to play!
> Look Anon Z-11, you have yourself completely deluded at this point, and seem lost. You are not being "rejected," your statements are being seen for what they are, bullshit. Your claim to be "awakened" is bullshit, and your explanations of "awakening" are bullshit. For example, you said this: > > >Jennifer, when it comes down to it we're all just a formation of really small cells. Those cells used to be different long time ago but then they realized, if you can call it that, that if they work together they survive better. So as time passed by those cells decided to work together and started creating complex systems and even living, thinking beings. So really we're a combination of those small cells that decided to make a complex system to survive better. > > Really? Those little cells all "decided?" Come on! > > It's like this, big claims ("I awakened long ago") require big proof, and you have not shown any. In fact, although you write pretty well, you don't come across as someone who thinks deeply at all. > > You have every right to disagree, and I am sure you will. But stop pulling the wool over your own eyes, Z, you are not "awakened" at all. You are lying to yourself.
The path to peace goes through recognizing one's faults. Why are you so obsessed with proving me wrong anyway? Can't you just accept my messages as they are? To me you do come across as someone who thinks deeply. But to someone else you might comes across as shallow. It all depends on who's judging. I personally don't think I'm deeper than you are, or deeper than someone else on this forum. In fact I don't pay mind to things like that. I am who I am.
I'm not going to apologize my analogy because I believe in evolution theory. Even if evolution theory was proven wrong I would still not apologize my analogy simply because of the evidence and the scientific consensus on evolution theory that exists today. It is merely a way of looking at things. Besides even if evolution theory was proven wrong the fact remains that we are made of complex cell structures that exist in the micro-world.
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 8 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,068
The basic flaw is the assumption that cells DO anything, they don't. They react and evolve through reacting with their environment, nothing is *doing* anything. This is the basic flaw in thinking by the arrogant and ignorant, the conviction that some thing, or one, is doing something when in fact, everything is *only* reacting to it's environment if you stop looking at a single link and instead, notice the chain.
dr-robert (Anon C) — 4 months ago, 3 hours later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,076
Thank you, Hexi. This is exactly what I was getting at. And this is part of what one awakens "to." No one is doing anything. All of THIS is simply arising as it must. With that understanding, people do not write posts bragging about their "enlightenment," and putting other people down. Do you get that, Anon Z?
> Thank you, Hexi. This is exactly what I was getting at. And this is part of what one awakens "to." No one is doing anything. All of THIS is simply arising as it must. With that understanding, people do not write posts bragging about their "enlightenment," and putting other people down. Do you get that, Anon Z?
The chain or structure is made by those cells. It seems you completely missed my point. The fact is that we're made of microscopic cells. Those are what make us, or if you want to go on an even smaller level it's atoms that make us. I don't expect you to understand that just by snapping your fingers. It takes time to come to that realization. And a lot of thinking.
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 3 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,110
@18,092
Wait, anon, let me get this straight... You think awakening is the realization that everything is just atoms (and smaller, actually)? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I knew that at the age of what... 6?
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 36 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,111
Anon Z is someone (perhaps not Hexi) who appears to be familiar with this forum, alluding to posts on sociopathy and religion, and my nose can smell rejection and retribution aimed at Dr Robert for some reason. Anyone else get that feeling?
If you want to look at it from a cellular perspective, what are cells composed of? Molecules. If you take an electronic microscope, you find atoms, which are 99.9% empty space by the way, scientifically verified. You can break those down to subatomic particles (quarks) and so on, potentially ad infinitum. As the technology improves, there will be further discoveries of subatomic 'matter', but if you consider the findings of quantum mechanics, all matter is a form of energy vibrating at different frequencies. Simply put, if you are looking for a fixed, solid point of reference, there isn't one to be found. Cells, and hence genotypes, evolve because some are simply not 'fit' to survive into progeny, and we are back to the 'survival of the fittest'. Biological 'fitness' is simply the ability to pass a copy of DNA into subsequent generations and that is what drives evolution. Not sure where this fits in the awakening subject for you, but anyways doesn't hurt to clarify.
> Wait, anon, let me get this straight... You think awakening is the realization that everything is just atoms (and smaller, actually)? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I knew that at the age of what... 6?
There is a vast difference between knowing and realizing. Imagine being hit in the face. Does it hurt? Yes. Now while you can know it hurts it doesn't equal to really getting punched in the face. @18,109
> Right on, Jennifer!
Weren't you going to ban her just some time ago?
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 33 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,115
@18,111
Yeah I got the same feeling a while back - espeically with his comment about banning Jennifer - wow this guy does not like criticism at all!! ... BDM or WW maybe, don't know. It's def not Hexi tho.
But, he keeps making me laugh... let's face it, once you know who / what "you" are, stuff like this just pales into insignificance. Maybe it's my ego being nasty, but if so, I don't care. The guy's an idiot and will just keep stamping his feet and throwing his dolly out unless we bow to his great wisdom....
Cells / atoms... well OK, cells have memory perhaps... the difference between knowing and realising I get totally - it shows through my posts in the first half of this thread. But realising we are just cells is "awakening"?!
Like we (Robert, Jennifer, Hexi, David) have all seen, this guy is about as "awake" as a waxwork dummy. Less so in fact - since at least the dummy does not pretend to be something it isn't!
> Maybe it's my ego being nasty, but if so, I don't care.
Gotta interrupt for a sec. Helen, if you took that a step further would it be willingness to see a persons pain or is stopping where you are avoiding perfectionism and creating healthy boundaries? Just curious.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 6 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,125
Sorry mate I do not understand the question...
If I took "my ego being nasty" a step further ... >would it be willingness to see a persons pain or is stopping where you are avoiding perfectionism and creating healthy boundaries?
All I can say is that I am generally very empathic and do not shy away from seeing someone's pain and trying to help them deal with that. But with healthy boundaries for sure if it's not a friend.
Perfectionism just doesn't exist.
But aware or awake or not, I also know that my ego still exists - I just have a better understanding of where it comes from and am better able to not let it dictate to me anymore. So I daresay when pushed, I will still be a bit nasty at times; I will still have a pretty sick sense of humour; I will still find it hard to get close to people (unless therapy fixes that!), still love, fear, etc etc. It's just that these things won't define me, not to myself at least.
Hexi★ (Anon F) — 4 months ago, 8 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,126
@previous
Understanding ego is easy. When you react to something, anything, the first thought that comes to your mind is the ego, ignore that and go for the 2nd one. :)
As a side note, people who to claim to have a "sick sense of humour" are always lying. When told jokes like "it's not rape is she blinks twice", "If there is grass on the field, play ball!" and "Hitler didn't drink very often because it would make him mean" they *always* go: "That's crossing the line!!" Of courses, you'll deny it, now, forget that thought and go for the next one and you'll see what I mean. :)
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 5 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,127
@previous
LOL.
Like what you say about the second thought... I have been trying to do that more often recently, and it's interesting. It has helped me to see my ego more clearly and that is illuminating. Along with awakening... I smile lots more, laugh lots more (especially when I accidentally pulled my friend clean off the stool when trying to help pull her boot off... in a shop... cried with laughter on that one! And if it's juvenile ... bite me!) and *feel* less pain or irritation.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 4 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,129
@previous
Up until a couple of weeks ago, I was a huge ball of anxiety. Muscle tension, feeling sick, head buzzing, unable to concentrate, could not sit still for 5 minutes, drinking, self-harm...
OK, so have done some work on that with therapist. But it was still there, no doubt.
Until I realised that it was my ego causing the anxiety. No event, just my thoughts about the event.
Anxiety still arises... I have some now (and I don't know why) but I am better able to let it go, to understand that it is not *real* it is created by my thoughts.
Of course, I have not been "tested" on this yet... wait for life to chuck in a curved ball and we shall see how easy it is to hold on to this understanding, or knowing, then.
You are not anxious, you are aware of the anxiety.
You cannot find yourself in terms of thoughts or sensations but you know you are here, always here, never not HERE AND NOW. If you can't find yourself in terms of objectivity (things), then you have no shape, color, dimestions, or any attributes; the only attribute you can give yourself is that you know beyond doubt that you are ALWAYS PRESENT and AWARE! Everything else is an addition to yourself—an identification. No matter what the quality of sensation is, you are always here, but you cannot find any THING that is present and aware. You only know sensations and perceptions. So you cannot identify yourself as something (subject) that is present and aware. Even 'I am aware' falls away and what's left is just presence (awareness)—what is (reality). Awareness is always present and the 'subject' (YOU) of every experience, including the anxiety, but you cannot define it or describe it and that's what we are struggling to discuss here.
The only way you know awareness is by that which describes it—the content (you can say the world, universe, all of it). Could the world and the body possibly exist only in the mind, creations of the mind? We cannot say for sure, it's a challenge, but have to question that. Can you ever be sure that this so called reality is not a dream? No, but you accept without questioning that the mind is in a body, which exists as a separate object in the world. The only thing you can say for certain is that you are here and aware—the only reality you can hold onto—everything else is open to speculation and inquiry.
> "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." > > Antoine de Saint-Exupery > French writer (1900 - 1944) > > :)
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 10 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,149
@previous
Yes, I can relate to that.
Ross had to spend a lot of time reducing my anxiety, which I experienced in much the same way as you describe. He explained that anxiety is a reaction to strong feeling. Feelings rise up in the body; anxiety is the ole "fight or flight" reaction. It pushes the feelings down, away, but it takes a lot of energy to do this hence the tension and heart racing and so on.
He described it like a rocket (the feeling), and the anxiety swipes the power away - you know, the burning of the thrusters of the engine you can see when a rocket takes off, or whatever it's called.
What to do about it? Several ways... try this. Breathe in to the count of 7, and out to the count of 11. In through the nose out through the mouth if you can. If 7 / 11 is too hard, try 5 / 9.
The mind can not be anxious if the body is relaxed; and vice versa.
Helen (OP) — 4 months ago, 6 hours later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,164
Hi EM, that sounds fab!! And sorry, not seen a message from you (unless it's under a different name).
Mike's right - "I am" is all there is. The "I think" bit... well, that comes along with being human I guess but... it's not necessary, it does not define us, it's just required in order to go about everyday life.
When we can just sit, just be still, just be... then thoughts can rise and fall, drift in and drift out....
Of course, I say all this but it's been a difficult couple of days for me. However, no matter as I know that underneath it all, I am, and that beautiful peaceful knowing will never leave.
David (Anon D) — 4 months ago, 7 hours later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,224
Not bad but it's the "sheathe it" part where it gets a bit wonky. 'Who' exactly would do that? Ego?
There's been this fad in Lala land especially that I would call 'hurry-up-let's-get-me-enlightened' that's been attracting a lot of attention for some time. There are folks out there who have apparently run out of fun things to do, have tons of cash, and 'enlightenment' would seem like a cool 'asset' to have... now that there are no more inhabitable islands to be had. The spiritual marketplace has become a magnet for gold diggers; there's even this guru dude who charges about 5000US and will place his hands on your head to 'alter the frequencies' and voila you're done! Ain't that amazing? Not sure I'd want to have my brain patterns 'rewired' by this dude but that's a personal preference ;)
The problem is that this fury to 'get enlightened' before shit hits the fan undermines the legitimacy of real spiritual teachers who usually keep a VERY low profile. As the saying goes, money corrupts and big money corrupts big time...
dr-robert (Anon C) — 3 months ago, 13 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,375
IN THIS MOMENT everything is as it is (undeniable), and IN THIS MOMENT nothing can be any different (also undeniable). A great part of the emotional pain and suffering in this life come from trying to deny those undeniable facts. That is the point, Jen.
Helen (OP) — 3 months ago, 38 minutes later, 2 weeks after the original post[^][v]#18,378
@previous
Yeah, "oh" indeed.
time for a new thread - I'm all "me me me" at the moment. By which I mean "ego ego ego" rather than "I I I".
It's more than just too much now.